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Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2015 05:33 pm
@Briancrc,
Quote:
If we were to accept the premise of the concept and it was to serve as a model, at what point in the development of the disease did one lose their free will?


No matter how addictive the substance, heroin, tobacco, alcohol, whatever, people have been known to just up and quit, cold turkey, on their own volition. They did not lose their free will--they just lost their "will power," if you ask me.

There is generally a physical concomitant that makes their body "crave" more after becoming accustomed to a given "addictive" substance, but it's not an insurmountable barrier which prohibits a person from abandoning continued useage, if and when they are truly determined to do so.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2015 05:48 pm
When I was a kid, growing up in a small southern town, there were no "leash laws," or anything like it. Virtually everybody owned a dog or dogs, and most all were generally of the opinion that "their" dog would "never" hurt anybody, so they just let them run free.

As a consequence, I was attacked and bitten by dogs 2-3 times a year, or more. I became quite scared of them, and would run when I saw them coming. It didn't help, they always outran me.

Then an adult told me that if I didn't act scared, and stood up to the dogs, they probably wouldn't attack me.

I tried it. I was still scared to death when those snarling, barking dogs came running at me, but I tried to act like I wasn't and shouted at them to get away.

Lo and behold, it worked. The more times I did this, and the more times it worked, the less fearful I became, so my "act" got better.

The point? It took what I can only call "will power" not to run when I saw those dogs coming. The "instinct" to run in an attempt to avoid injury was powerful, but not so powerful that I couldn't "disobey" it if I felt it was in my best interest to do so.
0 Replies
 
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2015 07:58 pm
@layman,
Quote:
They did not lose their free will--they just lost their "will power," if you ask me.


It's a very awkward concept. Things that are lost are somewhere. Where is the willpower when it's lost? Where was it at the time it was found?

When writers couldn't think of what to write they would call upon a muse or a devine afflatus. Apparently these things were found when the writer was able to write again.

How did the person beat the addiction? They had their willpower. How do you know they had their willpower? They beat their addiction. How do you get your willpower back when it's lost? You will it back. If you can will it back, then how did it get lost in the first place?

And then what do we say about all those people who don't quit their addictions cold turkey? The ones that go the rest of their lives suffering from the consequences of their addiction? That will power didn't just get lost between the sofa seats. That will power got stuck behind the dryer or something.
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2015 08:08 pm
@Briancrc,
Seems like willpower/free will are uncaused causes in the conventional depiction. That makes me wary.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2015 08:19 pm
@Briancrc,
You ask a lot of questions, Brian, all seemingly premised on a very static view of things, and all of which could be asked with equal applicability if addressed to "strictly physical" phenomena.

How does a man lose muscles? How does he gain them back? Why are some men stronger than others? Is it possible to have a "power" (such as, say, the power to drive a nail) but not use it? If you don't use it, why not? Why do people get ill? Once they're ill, how do they ever get better? Why do some people have an allegric reaction to poison ivy, and not others? And so on.

Is there supposed to be something absolutely mysterious and unfluctuating about changes in material conditions? About the fact that individuals vary greatly in an immense number of ways physically. If a man is obese, how does he lose weight? If he can lose weight, then how and why could he have ever gotten overweight to begin with? It's all a very "awkward concept" that all traits and physical characteristics are not identical in every person and that physical conditions can change with time and circumstances, I suppose.

But it happens to be the case. Maybe, on some theories, it would be impossible. So much the worse for those theories, then, eh?
layman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Oct, 2015 08:48 pm
Kierkegaard, an 18th century Danish philosopher in the existential vein, once said: "Not to decide is to decide."'

What the hell does that mean? Isn't that a contradiction?

In simple terms he was saying something like this. Suppose I announce to my friends and family that I have decided to move to Europe "soon." As time goes by, more and more people begin to ask me "When you going to move to Europe?'

I always tell them: " I haven't decided yet." Years go by, and I'm still giving the same answer: "I haven't decided."

Kierkegaard would say that I have decided. I have in fact decided to go nowhere, as pre-eminently demonstrated by the fact that I have, indeed, gone nowhere. Until I actually move, I have not really decided to move. Until that time, I have decided NOT to move.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 03:05 am
@layman,
Quote:
How does a man lose muscles? How does he gain them back?


Yes, and this is a testable question. We can define muscle such that we have agreement between independent observers who can also experiment on methods to produce loss and gain. These methods can also be measured independently and checked for agreement; a standard scientific practice.

How do you do that with free will?

Quote:
Is there supposed to be something absolutely mysterious and unfluctuating about changes in material conditions? About the fact that individuals vary greatly in an immense number of ways physically.


I wouldn't say "supposed" to, but when we haven't learned how something works through demonstration, then we can set up ways to attempt to demonstrate it to better understand the mechanisms that might be at work. If I demonstrate muscle growth as a function of frequency of movement under increasing loads, then I have at least established one verifiable account.

Quote:
But it happens to be the case. Maybe, on some theories, it would be impossible. So much the worse for those theories, then, eh?


Yes, there are some things that people postulate that are not falsifiable and are taken on faith.
Briancrc
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 03:16 am
@layman,
Quote:
Kierkegaard, an 18th century Danish philosopher in the existential vein, once said: "Not to decide is to decide."'

Reminds me of the lyric from Rush
Quote:
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
. Neal Peart is an avid reader and incorporated a lot of what he read into the music of Rush.
The song is called freewill. Even one of my favorite bands is against me. Wink . Having disagreements doesn't have to lead to hate. I still love their music.
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 05:16 am
@FBM,
Are you aware of quantum mechanics? Lots of "uncaused" events in there...
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 05:22 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
These methods can also be measured independently and checked for agreement; a standard scientific practice. How do you do that with free will?

Without free will, there can be no science. Science presupposes the observation of nature by the mind, with a view to draw general laws aka "thoughts that are true many times". If scientists are meat robots, then their conclusions are not based on logic and observation but on some meaty tic-toc.
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 07:07 am
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Are you aware of quantum mechanics? Lots of "uncaused" events in there...


People like to mention that and try to apply QM outside of the quantum context. I have yet to see it done successfully. Can you explain how it might be relevant to the workings of the macroscopic brain?

Also:

Quote:
Are quantum fluctuations completely uncaused events?

It's not quite right to say that "particles/antiparticles appear and annihilate spontaneously" for the following reason:

Particles and antiparticles are modelled as excitations of quantum fields. The things that are being described as appearing and annihilating in the vacuum are disturbances to these quantum fields, which are sometimes called "virtual particles". Virtual particles are not particles. A particle (or antiparticle) is a special type of excitation or "wiggle" which has a life of its own - it can travel off quite happily. (Think of wiggling a slinky toy and watching the wiggle travel off). The virtual particle is more of a twitch that didn't quite make it to being a fully fledged wiggle.

Now no analogy is perfect, and this one certainly isn't either.

1 A quantum field might have an excitation which is more analogous to a wave all along the slinky, rather than a small wiggle travelling off. This is also a like a particle/antiparticle.

2 You might get the impression that the field is changing with time and these virtual particles are twitches that you could "see happening". However it's more subtle than that - actually these quantum fields are subject to the uncertainty principle, and the "twitch" that is a quantum vacuum fluctuation is merely a potential field configuration arising from the uncertainty principle.

these particles appear to be a completely uncaused event which defies reason
The vacuum fluctuations do not have any cause (other than that their existence is mandated by the laws of physics). However, it's not correct to say that they're "events", for the reason I mentioned - they're uncertainties rather than things happening as a function of time.

To address your point about energy, you are right, if you apply general relativity these vacuum fluctuations contribute an energy which will gravitate. This causes a discrepancy which has been called the vacuum catastrophe


http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/67563/are-quantum-fluctuations-completely-uncaused-events

A better source here, explaining the common misconception that QM allows uncaused events: https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=wqq7BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=quantum+uncaused+events&source=bl&ots=2KCwXCJk02&sig=RjnjZ9P4LvLQe2FObNPztX-Dah8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CD8Q6AEwCTgUahUKEwjrtOzvy87IAhUFKJQKHQQ9Aug#v=onepage&q=quantum%20uncaused%20events&f=false
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 09:16 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
Yes, and this is a testable question


Like the effect of my decision-making coupled with the exercise of my will power isn't? Easiest thing in the world to test.

Sometime in the next 10 minutes, suddenly tell me, 10 different times, to reach over and touch my monitor screen. I will do it, whenever you say, and every time you say, within a split second. I could do it a 100 times. Easily repeatable.

Why did I touch the screen each time? Because I decided to.

How was I able to "command" my finger to touch the screen? By exercising my will.

Could I have, on any or all of those occasions, chose NOT to touch my screen, even though you told me to? Sure. As a matter of fact that's exactly what I would do, just to see if you were chump enough to say: "See! I told you that you have no free will, and now I've proved it!!"
0 Replies
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 09:35 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Can you explain how it might be relevant to the workings of the macroscopic brain?

I could just say that there are, in a modern scientific outlook, causes without cause e.g. at quantum level. If it can happen to particles, why can't it happen to something else?

It's a mistake IMO to consider that quantum laws only apply at the microscopic level and not at "our level". We too are composed of microscopic elements. We might suffer or even die from radioactivity when exposed to it, yet radioactivity is inherently a quantum event. Radioactivity can also randomly cause positive mutations that may get carried into the species gene pool... We live in the same world as particles do.

This said, quantum objects seem to follow probabilities and are thus predictable at the level of large numbers. E.g. the radioactive decay of one particular carbon-14 atom into a nitrogen-14 atom is unpredictable: nobody can say when it will happen; but the rhythm of decay of large numbers of such atoms is predictable through probabilities, allowing carbon dating.

The same principle applies to biochemistry: while the timing of a particular chemical interaction involving a particular pair of molecules is generally unpredictable, some predictions can be made at the level of large numbers, and thus chemists can predict the speed at which thousands of molecules will react with one another.

Therefore, you would have a point IF the brain was one large unstructured population of chemicals: the reactions happening at the level of the whole 'soup' would be deterministic, by virtue of them involving a large number of chemicals. BUT the brain is not a soup. It has a very fine and complex structure made of complex meso-structures (neurons), themselves made of complex micro-structures (dentrites, synapses, myelin, etc.) themselves made of complex nano-structures (e.g. cell walls covered with chemical receptors of different kinds and able to interact with scores of hormones and neurotransmitters). The nano and micro levels are partly unpredictable in their individual behavior, because they deal with small numbers of molecules and chemical reactions. And the meso and macro-levels are not necessarily adding up these micro-level events in an additive way where they would annul one another, as happens in large unstructured populations. Instead the macro-structure is combining micro-level events into a broad synthetic picture that is more than the sum of its parts.

Think of two painters using two paints, yellow and blue. One painter is mixing his two colors to make a nice green color, and he and paints his whole canvas with that green. That's a metaphor for unstructured, soup-like large number aggregation: the whole erases the variability of the parts. The other painter uses each color separately in patches, thus painting a picture of say a yellow parrot over a blue sky background, and adding a few touches of green here or there on the parrot. That's a metaphor for a structured combination of micro-elements into a macro-picture that retains the original colors and their variability. The first painter can only paint one easily predictable (green) picture, while the second can paint an infinite number of new, original pictures.

The brain IMO is like the second painter. It may very well retains the unpredictable, underterminist feature of small scale biochemistry and physics.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 10:04 am
@Olivier5,
Nice analogy, Ollie! Did you make that one up yourself?
Olivier5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 10:07 am
@layman,
The painters? Yes. It's only a metaphor.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 10:18 am
@FBM,
Quote:
Seems like willpower/free will are uncaused causes in the conventional depiction.


A pre-occupation with wrangling over the precise meaning of such abstract concepts as "cause" or "will" shouldn't override common sense and/or empirical observation.

Nobody, not even Newton or Einstein, claims to know exactly what "gravity" is or just how and why it "operates." Newton emphasized that he did not have, and was not willing to try to propound, a "theory of gravity." He simply worked out a mathematical formula that made predictions possible. Even so, we still have a word for it--"gravity."

I have already quoted Hume's observations about the difficulty in observing a "cause." We nonetheless use the term.

Same deal with "will," as I see it.
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 10:33 am
@layman,
Quote:
It is inconceivable that inanimate Matter should, without the Mediation of something else, which is not material, operate upon, and affect other matter without mutual Contact…That Gravity should be innate, inherent and essential to Matter, so that one body may act upon another at a distance thro' a Vacuum, without the Mediation of any thing else, by and through which their Action and Force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an Absurdity that I believe no Man who has in philosophical Matters a competent Faculty of thinking can ever fall into it. (Newton)


It may be worth noting that Newton uses the term "inanimate matter" not simply "matter." Animate and inanimate matter are two entirely different things. Yet some seem to assume that they can and should be treated as identical. Matter is matter, eh?

"What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Nevermind." (Bertrand Russell)
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 05:40 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:

Quote:
Can you explain how it might be relevant to the workings of the macroscopic brain?

I could just say that there are, in a modern scientific outlook, causes without cause e.g. at quantum level. If it can happen to particles, why can't it happen to something else?
...


a) Virtual particles aren't particles. Otherwise, there would be no need for the adjective.

b) The rules that govern QM do not govern everyday macroscopic events. That does NOT imply that QM events have no observable results on the macroscopic scale. I'm willing to grant that this was probably an unintentional straw man.

Are you often mistaken for a wave? (wave-particle duality)

What's the wave function of a toaster or a tractor?

Both the location and velocity of both can be measured, each without affecting the accuracy of the other.

Try to entangle macroscopic objects in the way that subatomic particles are entangled.

Etc.

The two painters are a false analogy, comparing things that are more different than they are alike. It's very, very difficult to overcome quantum decoherence in order to manifest QM effects on a macroscopic level, even when it's done in a lab by physicists: http://phys.org/news/2013-07-quantum-physics-macroscopic.html

So, when you bring up QM in an attempt to explain how free will happens in the brain, then I have to press you for evidence. If speculation and hypotheticals were sufficient, then nobody's would be better than anyone else's and we'd get nowhere. I've brought research results to the table. Would you mind bringing something more than speculation and what-ifs?

The free will debate is specifically about making conscious decisions. Otherwise, Libet, et al, wouldn't have to set up the experiments to measure when the subjects became consciously aware of the decision. Without the conscious element, it may as well all have been done with EEG, and the results would have told us nothing. It's crucial and none of the experimenters even debate that.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 06:41 pm
@Olivier5,
Listening, so unlike me.
I'm a painter and find philosophy to be layers of blankets of foam, sometimes well explicated, but still foam.

re free will? it's good if it works, unless it is bad.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Oct, 2015 06:56 pm
Quote:
In 2008, psychologists Kathleen Vohs and Jonathan Schooler published a study on how people behave when they are prompted to think that determinism is true....Those who had read the deterministic message were more likely to cheat on the test. "Perhaps, denying free will simply provides the ultimate excuse to behave as one likes," Vohs and Schooler suggested.


Well, yeah, I guess that is a possibility.
0 Replies
 
 

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