Is free-will an illusion?

@JLNobody,

It depends on the observer. When any individual believes in their god, I believe that their "free will is an illusion."

@JLNobody,

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until I realize I can't find something in me that has free will.

Exactly JL why I maintain that the problem isn't one of logic but semantics. One might have to first define it before deciding whether it's real

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Perhaps there is a semantic issue with the semantic argument itself...

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@cicerone imposter,

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When any individual believes in their god, I believe that their "free will is an illusion."

But Cis, why

Why can't their God confer freewill

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@Fil Albuquerque,

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issue with the semantic argument itself...

Could be, Fil. I'm just speculating after all

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@dalehileman,

gods do not exist; it's all in the individual's perception that such a "thing" exists. gods cannot confer free will; it's all nature of our chemistry/biology and environment.

Since man is now able to send earthly materials to Mars, where does free will for man end?

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@cicerone imposter,

Cis you'll have to forgive an old fart who initially tries to understand by literal interpretation

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gods do not exist;

I presume Cis you mean that you don't believe they exist. Okay, if by "gods" you mean those of the conventional sort, let's make that assumption for the sake of argument

That is, that they don't

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it's all in the individual's perception that such a "thing" exists.

I'm not sure by "thing" you refer to gods or freewill; but you've already stipulated to the former, so you must mean the latter

But now let's discuss "that", its implication being that freewill indeed exists because otherwise you would have said, eg, "whether"

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gods cannot confer free will;

Yes, well, obviously, if they don't exist they cannot confer

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it's all nature of our chemistry/biology and environment.

Not sure what you mean by "it's", whether the Universe, belief in gods, or freewill. But yes, chem/bio/env certainly do figure into any discussion of freewill and the Universe, if not gods

But how exactly

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Since man is now able to send earthly materials to Mars, where does free will for man end?

Forgive me Cis but I can't understand how our ability to visit Mars figures into the discussion

However I suppose you're asking, if freewill is a legitimate concept, under what conditions does it lose its power, and I can only reply: Under trying circumstances

Returning to your first assertion, though, and here allow me to switch into my own mode of pereception: The apodictical existential pantheist agrees that yes, no, it's all in our heads, to the extent that whether or not She exists depends on how one defines Her

However I can't see how any of the above addresses the question whether She can confer freewill

Phil, Tom, Frank, Craig, help, we're lost in the semantical aspect of it all

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@cicerone imposter,

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gods do not exist;

What is your basis for that? How do you know it? Or are you just guessing?

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it's all in the individual's perception that such a "thing" exists.

Same questions.

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gods cannot confer free will;

Same questions.

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it's all nature of our chemistry/biology and environment.

Not sure what that means, but if you are using that to bolster your previous assumptions...

...same questions.

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@Frank Apisa,

I guess Frank you and I must be excessively literal

Still we mustn't discourage the ESL with our nitpicking

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank,

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c.i.: gods do not exist;

Frank: What is your basis for that? How do you know it? Or are you just guessing?

The same assumption you make being an agnostic. You can't prove there is or isn't any gods.

My "guess" is based on my personal observation of "all" religions of mankind. Nobody has ever produced irrefutable evidence that their god exists.

Nature controls our lives, not any god.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5237675)
Frank,
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c.i.: gods do not exist;

Frank: What is your basis for that? How do you know it? Or are you just guessing?

The same assumption you make being an agnostic. You can't prove there is or isn't any gods.

My "guess" is based on my personal observation of "all" religions of mankind. Nobody has ever produced irrefutable evidence that their god exists.

Nature controls our lives, not any god.

First of all, ci, I want to disassociate myself from that last remark Dale made. Dale...that kind of thing is not necessary to a reasonable discussion.

Now...to what you said here, ci.

You are saying "gods do not exist."

That is one possible reality.

The other is that gods do exist.

But you are asserting that none do.

That in no way resembles my take on things. Using my take...you would arrive at "I do not know if gods exist or not."

(I'm trying to stay away from the labeling, ci. I'm going to try to stick with "I do not know if gods exist or not...and that I see no reason why they MUST exist...and I see no reason why they CANNOT exist.)

So I ask again: How do you arrive at your assertion that gods do not exist?

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@Frank Apisa,

I'm waiting for you to prove one does exist or doesn't exist. You're the one questioning others about gods, not me.

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@cicerone imposter,

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I'm waiting for you to prove one does exist or doesn't exist. You're the one questioning others about gods, not me.

What you are saying here makes no sense, ci.

I assert that I do not know if gods exist or not.

You are asserting no gods exist.

The only proof I can offer that I do not know if gods exist or not...is to sign an affidavit that I do not know. If you want that, I guess I could do it. But you would have to tell me that would be more telling than me simply telling you:

I DO NOT KNOW IF ANY GODS EXIST...AND I DO NOT KNOW THAT NO GODS EXIST.

Now...back to the original question. You are asserting that no gods exist.

How do you know that...or are you just guessing?

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@Frank Apisa,

Your position doesn't provide any proof one way or another. "I don't know" means you have no position; but you continue to demand others prove your non-sensical position. No logic or common sense.

If I say "I don't believe any gods exist." It's up to the person demanding a challenge prove a god does exist. "I don't know" means nothing in this context.

The christain god was created through the Egyptian "book of the dead."

There is no christian god - nor any other gods man has created.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5237756)
Your position doesn't provide any proof one way or another. "I don't know" means you have no position; but you continue to demand others prove your non-sensical position. No logic or common sense.

I HAVE NEVER ASKED YOU FOR PROOF OF MY POSITION...AND I HAVE NEVER ASKED YOU FOR PROOF OF YOURS.

You made an assertion and I asked a question about that assertion:

Do you know that no gods exist...or is it a guess?

There is no demand there.

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If I say "I don't believe any gods exist." It's up to the person demanding a challenge prove a god does exist. "I don't know" means nothing in this context.

I am not talking about what you guess...or believe...or do not guess...or do not believe.

You made an assertion...I asked you about the assertion.

Obviously you are not going to answer my question...and I do not blame you. It will make you look foolish if you do.

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The christain god was created through the Egyptian "book of the dead."

Sure...another thing of which you are certain, no doubt.

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There is no christian god - nor any other gods man has created.

You know this for a fact...or are you just guessing?

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@Frank Apisa,

It's not me who "looks foolish." It's because you still can't grasp that almost everybody who had this discussion with you couldn't get you to admit anything.

I'm off this merry-go-round.

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@Frank Apisa,

When I make a statement about where christianity came from, the Egyptian "book of the dead," it's not guessing. You don't even understand simple English.

In my reality, I don't try to prove something that doesn't exist with "I don't know" until it's proven otherwise.

You can keep guessing....

I'm otta here.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5237814)
It's not me who "looks foolish." It's because you still can't grasp that almost everybody who had this discussion with you couldn't get you to admit anything.

I'm off this merry-go-round.

I do not know if there are gods...I do not know if there are no gods. It appears to me that anybody asserting in either direction is making a guess. I may be wrong, but that would be nothing new.

See ya around.

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@cicerone imposter,

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Re: Frank Apisa (Post 5237814)
When I make a statement about where christianity came from, the Egyptian "book of the dead," it's not guessing. You don't even understand simple English.

Well...here you are again...already.

I do understand simply Enlish, ci. Sorry you have to resort to that so often. Personally, I do not understand how you can KNOW that Christianity came from the Egyptian Book of the Dead...but since you are a man of your word and since you have decided to abandon this discussion...I guess I will never find out.,

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In my reality, I don't try to prove something that doesn't exist with "I don't know" until it's proven otherwise.

Neither do I. But then again...I do not make assertions about what does not exist...when I do not know they do not exist. Too bad you do.

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You can keep guessing....

I'm otta here.

Where have I heard that before. Anyway...best of luck to you, ci. I've always enjoyed your company...and I will miss you.

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@Craigus,

i tried to invoke the multiverse in another thread, for the same question of freewill, and was systematically pulled apart by one astute poster.

it made me realise that although i may think i understand some part of THEORETICAL physics, that really i don't...i just go along with what i like the sound of, regardless of how it fits into the bigger picture.

don't get me wrong, i'll keep on doing that, the more info i take in, the better equipped i'll be to make an informed opinion.

i still like the idea of a multiverse, but there are questoin marks, and things i cant answer/don't understand, so i for one will be more careful about what i use as examples for my own personal views in future.

or i might not lol. i clearly state in my profile that i'm probably always wrong, and end quite a few posts with that disclaimer, so if anyone wishes to pull me apart, feel free....i may even learn something :p

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