Is free-will an illusion?

If we confine our attention to the Bible's account of Genesis 1:26, where man was created in God's image, might we understand this to mean according to God's attributes: love, justice, wisdom, and power? Then man's ability to exert power could be only by means of free will, a concept easily snuffed out if God knows our future. But God has no more obligation to know in advance anyone's moral outcome than you or I would have to view the last page of the whodunnit. Call it forbearance , patience, or whatever, God allows us to choose by not viewing our destination.

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@neologist,

Kinda makes sense. God was confused about love and killing too! With free will, humans are capable of doing almost everything god was able to do - including the world flood. That so-called world flood was mostly localized, but they didn't know about planet earth back then. Man's creation of war machinery does the same.

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@cicerone imposter,

I'm with you to a point but hardly think God was confused. He allowed the Edenic rebels to set their own course. After all, what is free will without a choice?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

I'm with you to a point but hardly think God was confused. He allowed the Edenic rebels to set their own course. After all, what is free will without a choice?

Except the god withheld from the "Edenic rebels" the knowledge necessary to truly have free choice...if there was to be punishment for certain conduct.

The "Edenic rebels" did not know there was a "right" and a "wrong"...a "good" and an "evil."

The story tells us that they thought disobeying and lying were equally virtuous with obeying and being truthful.

They COULD exercise "free will"...but the game was rigged.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . They COULD exercise "free will"...but the game was rigged.

So you're saying IF there is a God who created us with a sense of justice, it was a quality he himself did not possess?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . They COULD exercise "free will"...but the game was rigged.
So you're saying IF there is a God who created us with a sense of justice, it was a quality he himself did not possess?

Not even remotely. I said exactly what I said...and your supposition does not even come close.

Read it again...and come back to me on it.

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@Frank Apisa,

You wrote,

Quote:

...if there was to be punishment for certain conduct.

I "see" your point. If god has free will to do anything, but restricts humans from doing the same, that's not free will.

God goes one step further, and says if so and so does something, you must stone them to death.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You wrote,
Quote:
...if there was to be punishment for certain conduct.

I "see" your point. If god has free will to do anything, but restricts humans from doing the same, that's not free will.

God goes one step further, and says if so and so does something, you must stone them to death.

It is amazing, isn't it, ci.

The best guess that can be made about the Old Testament is that it is a self-serving "history" of the early Hebrews...interspersed with an almost absurd, very primitive mythology.

How anyone can claim to love that god...or that the god loves them (us) is beyond comprehension.

To actually use any of the book to justify moral conduct is beyond reason...as is trying to make sense out of individual parts of the mythology, like the Garden of Eden farce.

But...some decent, intelligent, well-meaning folk do.

MY TAKE: I wonder why...and just move on living my life as best I can.

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@Frank Apisa,

Really, Frank?
If the creations can recognize justice or lack of it, where did they get that understanding?
Do you remember when 7-11 came out with the Slurpee, Frank?
You remind me of one of my favorites, the Fulla Bulla

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Really, Frank?

Yup...really!

Quote:

If the creations can recognize justice or lack of it, where did they get that understanding?

What makes you think there are "creations" here? Is that based on the fact that you are guessing there was a "creator"...so therefore there has to be "creations."

Can you establish with any degree of certainty that your guess is correct?

Quote:

Do you remember when 7-11 came out with the Slurpee, Frank?
You remind me of one of my favorites, the Fulla Bulla

Do not remember the Slurpee. And do not know what the Fulla Bulla is. But if you think something I am suggesting is inappropriate, why not discuss it with me?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

. . . What makes you think there are "creations" here? Is that based on the fact that you are guessing there was a "creator"...so therefore there has to be "creations."

Can you establish with any degree of certainty that your guess is correct?

Taking the first 3 chapters of Genesis as a whole. I'm not able to see any difference between what you refer to as the entity who 'rigged' and some entity who created.

So, if not creator and creations, how about rigger and rigations?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
. . . What makes you think there are "creations" here? Is that based on the fact that you are guessing there was a "creator"...so therefore there has to be "creations."

Can you establish with any degree of certainty that your guess is correct?
Taking the first 3 chapters of Genesis as a whole. I'm not able to see any difference between what you refer to as the entity who 'rigged' and some entity who created.

So, if not creator and creations, how about rigger and rigations?

Well stop taking the first 3 chapters of Gensis as a whole. In fact, stop taking the Bible as a whole...or a part.

It may be all nonsense.

The god character in the Bible certainly rigged, to some degree or another, the outcome of the Garden of Eden. If you cannot see that...you have blinders on.

The god put the couple into the garden without ANY KNOWLEDGE of right and wrong...of good and evil. Lying, to them, was equivalent to telling the truth; disobeying was equivalent to obeying; living was equivalent to dying.

The god put them in the garden...and the put the one tree he did not want them to eat from dead in the center of the garden. He did not have to put the tree there at all...or he could have put it at the top of a mountain so tall the couple could never reach it. He also put "a serpent" in the garden with these naïve waifs…to tempt them to eat the fruit.

And the god made sure that neither of them knew that there was anything whatsoever wrong or evil with disobeying the instruction not to eat of the fruit.

If it were a case in a court here in the US…it would be thrown out in a minute.

The story as told (almost certainly fiction) was a set-up; a sting...it was rigged.

So…why are you so unwilling to acknowledge that it was?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

If it's all nonsense, Frank, how can you be so certain of its implication?

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

If it's all nonsense, Frank, how can you be so certain of its implication?

What implications am I certain of?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

If it's all nonsense, Frank, how can you be so certain of its implication?

What implications am I certain of?

You say over and over the jig was rigged. Are you not certain of that?

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@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

neologist wrote:

If it's all nonsense, Frank, how can you be so certain of its implication?

What implications am I certain of?

You say over and over the jig was rigged. Are you not certain of that?

I am certain the STORY tells of a rigged deal. I am certain the story of the Tale of Two Cities is about London and Paris. I am certain the story of Gone With The Wind is about the American South during the Civil War. I am certain the story of Moby Dick involves a whale and an obsessed whaler captain.

Would you actually ask me why I am certain of those implications?????

C'mon, Neo. Let's be real here.

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@neologist,

The STORY is about a god who refused to allow a couple to KNOW the difference between right and wrong…between good and evil…

…and who then punished the couple for doing wrong.

You apparently are bothered by the fact that the story is disgusting…that it is an absurd sting!

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It could be said that we are 'not' the thinker of our thoughts if we were then we'd be able to stop them... but if we could... what thought would start them again? As I say it could be said we are not the thinker of our thoughts and we can test this by sitting down a vowing 'not' to think... then watch and wait...

Conclusion, no free-will... probably.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The STORY is about a god who refused to allow a couple to KNOW the difference between right and wrong…between good and evil…

…and who then punished the couple for doing wrong.

You apparently are bothered by the fact that the story is disgusting…that it is an absurd sting!

It's obvious that we are not swimming in the same lake.

1 Reply

@neologist,

neologist wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
The STORY is about a god who refused to allow a couple to KNOW the difference between right and wrong…between good and evil…

…and who then punished the couple for doing wrong.

You apparently are bothered by the fact that the story is disgusting…that it is an absurd sting!
It's obvious that we are not swimming in the same lake.

What is obvious is that you are terrified of the god...and I do not blame you for one second. If I thought that god existed, I'd be more than terrified of it, myself. If the god was willing to punish Adam and Eve for doing what they did not even know was wrong…imagine what the god would do you if you doubted its existence for a second…or suggested in any way that the god was not entirely fair to Adam and Eve.

Stick with the loving nonsense, Neo. Feel safe. You are a fellow human being…and I love you.

1 Reply

Is free-will an illusion?

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