40
   

Is free-will an illusion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 06:46 pm
@ughaibu,
Provide us with an example by math formula on willed actions?
0 Replies
 
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 06:46 pm
@ughaibu,
...Not even gone bother to make it more clear...to each is own !
0 Replies
 
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 08:15 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Do you understand factoring and statistics?

Yes I do, but I am not sure what this in reference to.
tomr
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 08:21 pm
@ughaibu,
Quote:
Nobody "believes passionately"! It's a straightforward consequence of the maths.


What do you really know about "maths" Ughaibu? From the look of your posts on those math forums you seem to just be scratching at the surface of mathematics. It really isn't your place to tell someone the consequences of mathematics.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 08:23 pm
@tomr,
I was responding to,
Quote:
Because the number he creates is one number out of an uncountably infinite total number of options that makes the number mathematically random. Why a number like .5555... cannot be said to be mathematically random by this logic is something I do not know.


It may be that I misunderstood what you said.
tomr
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 08:30 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I was just making a point that a number like .5555.... has the same probability of being generated as any other decimal number. So why could that number not also be said to be mathematically random? Statistics would tell us that .5555... has the same chance as any other decimal even one that Ughaibu picks like .273737283... (Unless I am misunderstanding his meaning of mathematical randomness, which if I am, will not be elaborated on in any meaningful way.)
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 08:58 pm
@tomr,
Gotcha! Mr. Green
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 09:22 pm
@tomr,
tomr wrote:
one that Ughaibu picks like .273737283...
I don't pick the number! Seriously, how many times have I spelled this out?
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Nov, 2012 09:50 pm
@ughaibu,
I'm sure Uhg is something I'm not not sure what iy is
0 Replies
 
Craigus
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Jan, 2013 08:15 pm
@ughaibu,
You say everyone assumes the reality of free will? I disagree.
Free will would be the power to choose what you do regardless of outside influences. If someone has a gun pointed at you and you "choose" to run but are unable to due to fear, trauma etc (Chemicals in the brain stopping you from physically moving) then how do you have free will? perhaps restricted free will? which kinda goes against what free will is supposed to be.

Take this example and tell me if you agree or disagree:
If I were to magically duplicate the entire universe so I have two that are exactly identical and pressed the 'play' button at the same time, the same thing would happen in each one. Every grain of sand blown in the wind would land in exactly the same spot, every person would make exactly the same decision and both universes would never ever be out of sync. Agree or Disagree?

The only way I can see that they could be different is if you believe there is something non-physical such as god, spirits, souls etc
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 07:02 am
@Craigus,
Your hypothetical is not especially reasonable.

Free will MAY exist...and if it does, in your experiment if you pushed the play button not every grain of sand would land in the same spot...and huge differences would exist quickly.

You can read "The Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury on-line. It covers this sort of issue in a unique way.
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 12:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Your hypothetical is not especially reasonable.
True, Frank, and of course impossible to replicate. However, (as I might have asserted but much earlier) in almost any sort of simple physics experiment we can't help noting that the more carefully the variables are controlled the more likely the same outcome

On the other hand (again forgive repetition), the more variables the less likely. So maybe if the number of variables is infinite the likelihood is zero, so

Quote:
Free will MAY exist…....in your experiment if you pushed the play button not every grain of sand would land in the same spot……....
Bringing up the notion that without animal life to exercise that will, all those grains would land in the same places. However this idea is dualistic inasmuch as there's no dividing line between the living and the non-living. This in turn suggests that even a grain of dirt has a certain amount of free will

I still maintain however that the apparent impasse between free will and determinism is not one of physics but of semantics, as suggested by the difficulty of defining the former. In any case though we almost have to assume we're free at least to some extent because otherwise life takes on a kind of meaninglessness, hopelessness

Quote:
You can read "The Sound of Thunder" by Ray Bradbury on-line. It covers this sort of issue in a unique way.
Thank you Frank for that link
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 12:26 pm
@Craigus,
Quote:
The only way I can see that they could be different is if you believe there is something non-physical such as god, spirits, souls etc
Brings up interesting observation. We routinely assume cause-and-effecxt to convey a kind of absoluteness but let's suppose instead that if causal conditions are close to the borderline of 50 per cent between two different outcomes that either one might occur. Still, how can we have had any "control" over which one happens

….conveying the strong intuitive feeling that we're all dancing around some sort of semantic shortcoming
0 Replies
 
north
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Jan, 2013 03:49 pm

Free-will is based on the ability to QUESTION and to voice it
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 01:17 am
@Craigus,
There are also opposite extremes to your example; somebody could also attack the person holding the gun. What any one person will do is not predictable; free will.
0 Replies
 
dalehileman
 
  0  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 11:25 am
@north,
Quote:
Free-will is based on the ability to QUESTION and to voice it
Thanks North but your response violates the principle that nothing is entirely anything while everything is partly something else. For instance it implies that where there's no life there's no free will, requiring you now to define "life" as an absolute quality
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Jan, 2013 11:42 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank, Your analogy is a good one;
Quote:
Free will MAY exist...and if it does, in your experiment if you pushed the play button not every grain of sand would land in the same spot...and huge differences would exist quickly.


That's because even our environment continues to change; choices change.
Free will - which is impossible to predict.
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Jan, 2013 06:58 am
@Craigus,
Craigus wrote:
Free will would be the power to choose what you do regardless of outside influences.
No, that is not what philosophers mean by "free will".
Craigus wrote:
The only way I can see that they could be different is if you believe there is something non-physical such as god, spirits, souls etc.
Go on then, what's your argument? What difference do gods or souls make?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jan, 2013 09:38 am
@ughaibu,
I agree, "outside influences" have a direct impact on our choices. The environment is one of the major influences of our lives as is our genes.

Most people stay inside when there is a strong rain storm, and go outside when it's a nice sunny day.
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Jan, 2013 10:20 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Is free will an illusion? I feel compelled to say no, until I realize I can't find something in me that has free will. Just competing drives.
 

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