Why the west was the first to industrialize?

@hingehead,

hingehead wrote:

Hey Joe, while you're in the peanut gallery, why do you think the west was the first to industrialize?

There's no one single factor that can explain it. The west benefitted from a culture that was open to technological innovation and commerce, a legal system, especially in England, that favored finance and corporate business organizations, fairly easy access to the raw materials of industrialization (water power, iron, coal), and a whole host of other factors. But mostly I think it was the personal intervention of a benevolent god.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

But mostly I think it was the personal intervention of a benevolent god.

Not to question anyone's faith but why England and why the 18th Century? Surely Judeah was more deserving, chosen people, twelve tribes and all that a few millenia earlier.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

Wasn't it something to do with the invention of the whistling fanny?

It had a lot to do with the Protestant work ethic.

Just because Catholic countries cannot claim to have been on the cutting edge of the Industrial Revolution, should we pander to those of that persuasian so their collective self-esteem is not offended? I say no, since Britain and the U.S. were in the forefront of the Industrial Revolution due to the old Calvinist work ethic (aka, "money makes the world go around," as sung in the musical/movie Cabaret).

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@Foofie,

Ehem, in Britain (aka the UK), the 'Industrial Revolution' started in the mid-18th century. At that time, the country was officially Anglican and the head of the church was the monarch (like today). I don't think that such shows Calvinism ...

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Ehem, in Britain (aka the UK), the 'Industrial Revolution' started in the mid-18th century. At that time, the country was officially Anglican

It happened very soon after, if not in some ways simultaneously, in France, which was very much Catholic.

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@contrex,

On this very limited point the north-west of England is often cited as the beginning of the IR. Lancashire especially. And Lancashire was a Catholic centre.

For a more expert analysis on why our culture is the industrial one it is necessary to read Spengler's essays Money and The Machine which are the last two chapters of his monumental The Decline of the West. (Der Untergang des Abendlandes).

A must read for those interested in this topic. Following all the notes for cross reference to the pre-ceding chapters of course. And the notes they contain.

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@spendius,

Catholicism is very ample I am sure you agree Mexico and English Catholicism have very little to do with each other regarding cultural habits...the comparison with Protestantism is a stretched metaphor for something else but still in my view a valid one...

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@Fil Albuquerque,

Well, in Germany, the industrialisation started in Catholic countries e.g. along the Ruhr, in Silesia ...

Protestant/Evangelical German countries (resp. their monarchs) were largely among the last to accept changes - that's why some parts of today's Germany are still very rural.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Ehem, in Britain (aka the UK), the 'Industrial Revolution' started in the mid-18th century. At that time, the country was officially Anglican and the head of the church was the monarch (like today). I don't think that such shows Calvinism ...

And Anglicans don't exhibit a work ethic, or perhaps an empire ethic, that Catholic countries lost a few centuries earlier?

And, being candid, is the dynamo of Germany's industrialism correlate to its Lutheran demographic more than its Catholic demographic? Or, perhaps its Catholic demographic act more like Lutherans, than in a country with one predominant religion? Meaning an all Catholic country oftentimes lives culturally in the present moment, and doesn't have the orientation to forego current pleasure to ensure that the factories produce tomorrow?

Living in a Protestant country might be therapeutic for Catholics, so they don't act maudlin and give away anything they've acquired through hard work?

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@contrex,

contrex wrote:

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Ehem, in Britain (aka the UK), the 'Industrial Revolution' started in the mid-18th century. At that time, the country was officially Anglican

It happened very soon after, if not in some ways simultaneously, in France, which was very much Catholic.

I thought that as Catholic countries go, France was sort of a poor example of devout Catholicism, with their lax attitude towards sex, and pleasure. Naturally, they have nuns running schools, but that is just the Christmas wrapping, so to speak.

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@Foofie,

Since the Peace of Augsburg (1555) German countries were populated by citizens according to cuius regio, eius religio. That even can be observed today, much more in 18th and early 19th century.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

And Anglicans don't exhibit a work ethic, or perhaps an empire ethic, that Catholic countries lost a few centuries earlier?

I've no idea where and when Catholics lost their work ethics and if Anglicans did the same.

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:
And Anglicans don't exhibit a work ethic, or perhaps an empire ethic, that Catholic countries lost a few centuries earlier?

I've no idea where and when Catholics lost their work ethics and if Anglicans did the same.

Perhaps, in some small way when nuns told students that "a camel can sooner walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven"?

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@Walter Hinteler,

"The Enlightenment" was most responsible for consideration of humanity as commodities and also,(Think Lavoisier0 that the natural world is made up of inter-related "Systems" and not assorted fiefs of small efforts.

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@Foofie,

Foofie wrote:

Perhaps, in some small way when nuns told students that "a camel can sooner walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven"?

Anglican or Catholic nuns you meant there? But when you look through pauper papers, it only could be Anglican ...

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@Walter Hinteler,

Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foofie wrote:

Perhaps, in some small way when nuns told students that "a camel can sooner walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven"?

Anglican or Catholic nuns you meant there? But when you look through pauper papers, it only could be Anglican ...

I was told that was a saying that Catholic nuns in NYC told Catholic students back in the 1950's; perhaps, even later.

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@Foofie,

Quote:

Perhaps, in some small way when nuns told students that "a camel can sooner walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven"?

Which is only teaching propaganda to inculcate the idea that material things are not everything. Catholics are a bit easy going. They are reluctant to regard temporal prosperity as the chief end of existence and the single-minded pursuit of material welfare as a species of heroism.

They can be argued with on the point but they have their answers.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps, in some small way when nuns told students that "a camel can sooner walk through the eye of a needle, than a rich man go to heaven"?

Which is only teaching propaganda to inculcate the idea that material things are not everything. Catholics are a bit easy going. They are reluctant to regard temporal prosperity as the chief end of existence and the single-minded pursuit of material welfare as a species of heroism.

They can be argued with on the point but they have their answers.

Yes they do have answers, since they have a world-wide network of thinkers that develop explanations for their viewpoint. Plus, they have a promulgation system that is highly efficient, whether it includes early brainwashing in schools, or allowing the weekly homily to be promulgated by the flock in attendance.

And, people thought the fictitious Protocols were insidious!

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

Lancashire was a Catholic centre.

Tell me about it. Madame Contrex is from Wigan, and went to a convent school. She is, happily, completely lapsed.

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@Foofie,

Whatever "world-wide networks" or efficient "promulgation systems" they use are justified if their attitude to materialism has survival value for the culture. If it does then those world-wide networks" or efficient "promulgation sytems" are a good thing. Trying to make them sound sinister is ridiculous unless the survival value is addressed. You could be promoting something that doesn't have survival value and then where would you be?

To use the terms pejoratively without addressing the utility is rather passing by on a self-indulgent floating cloud of smoke and if it has no survival value it might be justifiably be persecuted.

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Why the west was the first to industrialize?

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