Would you buy your tween son a "Playboy"?

@jespah,

jespah wrote:

I throw you dudes a softball, and ....

PS For a bridal shower gift, my mother gave me a black teddy and a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves. Egad. That creeped me out and I was 29 at the time. If I'd been 15 and getting something comparable I would have keeled over.

This reminds me.
When I was a teenager, I was at a bookstore in the mall with my friend Linda.

I don't know if anyone else remembers this book, "Show Me". I actually tried to find it, or information about it online a few years ago, because I needed to see if it was indeed as creepy, nay, child pornography that I remembered from that day.

I don't know if Linda or I first picked it up, but one of us flipped through the first few pages, thinking it was an art book, because of the picture of 2 nude kids on the cover. All I remember is it hit both of us at the same instant what we were looking at, after the first few normal pages. Whichever of us was holding the book dropped it like a hot potato, and we just stared at each other like this.... Shocked

One of us picked it up again, because, well, I think we couldn't believe what was building up in those pages, and peeked again...just as quickly putting it back down. We started saying things to each other like "That wasn't..." "I don't unders...." "those where little kids...."

bleech....

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

chai2 wrote:
Jespah has no children.

what the hell is she doing here?

Being a reasonable human being.

Let me know when you've gotten down from your high horse.

screw you....you shot yourself in the dick, deal with it.

so, it's ok for the pathetic childless to be here, if they behave in a reasonable (to you) manner?

let me know when you figure out we were all children, and as your signature line reads.....oh, never mind....

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We've got a bunch of perspectives here, I'm seeing.
* Kid's curiosity
* Kid/parent trust
* Kid manipulation of parent
* Question of whether the article in question is even meaningful in light of available comparable (and more) items online
* Body image questions
* Body expectation issues

Am I missing anything?

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@chai2,

chai2 wrote:

the pathetic childless

Just to be clear, this is your language, not mine.

I'm pretty sure I'm able to dislike the way you're behaving without having to dislike everyone who doesn't have kids.

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@jespah,

jespah wrote:

We've got a bunch of perspectives here, I'm seeing.
* Kid's curiosity
* Kid/parent trust
* Kid manipulation of parent
* Question of whether the article in question is even meaningful in light of available comparable (and more) items online
* Body image questions
* Body expectation issues

Am I missing anything?

Treasure discovery? Someone else mentioned earlier hiding a few for the kids to find. That's an excellent idea - it mimics the experiences of myself and just about every person I know.

Anyone who thinks that kids these days don't have access, either at home or out with their friends, to quite explicit videos of people ******* in every way you can possibly imagine, is incredibly naive. Playboy is NOTHING compared to what they already know about and can see with only the tiniest bit of effort. It's actually quite artistic and well-done, in comparison. I can see no harm whatsoever in giving your kid the opportunity to maybe find a few mags.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

I'm not aware that these other folks have not expressed your particular... disdain... for children.

I'm just wondering why you're here, since I find it improbable that you actually have an interest in learning about raising kids.

Soooooo.....everyone else here without kids have an interest in learning how to raise children?

Where the rest of the childfree giving messages that they were going to be taking on a child or 2 to raise?

I don't have disdain for children. Especially because I think it's not particularly harmful to experience schoolyard misconceptions. All of us here heard funny, false stuff growing up from other kids (and adults), yet here we are, all aware of where babies come from, how to prevent them, and all kinds of other sexual stuff.

That's part of growing up, not just about sex, but hearing all sorts of things that aren't true, and figuring out what's true and what's not.

I still have the question of how you can discuss porn if a child asks about it, and not bring up sex. You never did answer that.

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< a somewhat minor aside re the points about what you find online - looking for a pic of women on a sofa to post on a thread about dlowan's housing and other stuff ... got a few Shocked

surprises>

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Treasure discovery? Someone else mentioned earlier hiding a few for the kids to find. That's an excellent idea - it mimics the experiences of myself and just about every person I know.

Cycloptichorn

I agree.
And I think it is pretty much the experience of most people...part of that discovery is the feeling that you're the first one who has discovered it.

I worked in a convenience store when I was 18, and this middle aged woman came in and bought a playboy, or something similar.
She made a point of saying it was for her son, and to this day, I think that was pretty strange.

Brings to mind something linkat said on another thread about "the lazies".
I mean, how lazy can you get that you let your mom buy your porn? A part of the fun of being underage and getting your hands on something like that was the covert activity behind getting it.

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Good Ole A2K...even when the conservatives disappear the Libs turn on each other. Anything for a piece of meat.

Cool

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@chai2,

Quote:

Especially because I think it's not particularly harmful to experience schoolyard misconceptions.

This is where I really differ from you. I do think schoolyard misconceptions are dangerous. I've known a few people who really only figured it all out after they got pregnant and had a baby, or an abortion, or caught herpes, or AIDS.

Sure, maybe they knew theoretically but they didn't ever think it would happen to them. Maybe they still don't. I don't know.

What you don't know can hurt you.

I'm not really sure how Playboy, et al, fits into this but maybe it removes some of the mystery of it all.

1 Reply

At age ten I’d be providing information: sexual reproduction information, non-sexualised naked pictures of both sexes, sure, especially if he’s asking and even if he isn’t. But I see no benefit to providing an adult magazine, specifically designed to titillate, full of sexualised images of naked women, to a ten year old.

1 Reply

@tsarstepan,

Quote:

I don't think anyone has brought this issue up but what about a tween daughter and a request for a Playgirl magazine?

Is that even still in print?

I could argue against it on the grounds of artistic merit but I won't. I'll just say it was a really lousy publication.

Judging by the current epidemic of best selling bodice rippers I'd say women prefer their porn in text. Why? I have no idea as I'm not an aficionado of any type of porn.

I do remember reading something about how men watching porn can identify with the man -- by wanting to be the man -- but women always felt kind of sorry for the girl -- they didn't want to be her.

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

I'm not really sure how Playboy, et al, fits into this but maybe it removes some of the mystery of it all.

I hope it does, because I don't see any value in sex being a mystery.

Apart from that, just as a matter of policy, I think it's wrong to deliberately misinform people. Especially if your specific intent is to keep them ignorant about a matter so important as sex, and especially when these people are your own kids --- who are at your mercy, who trust you, and whom you purport to love.

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@Joeblow,

We're pretty much the same. We started talking to Mo about it when he started asking questions about it, I think he was about 7 years old. We bought the age appropriate books and let him keep them for reference (and he did refer to them, as did his friends).

I guess I could see the benefit of it if it were to keep them away from the computer where they're likely to discover more.... ummm.... demanding things.

If Mo were to ask me I'd most likely lob that question over to Mr. B. In fact, Mo would be much more likely to ask Mr. B such a thing.

But honestly, parents are constantly told to exploit their child's natural curiosity and to let them have free reign in exploring and investigating. But when it comes to bodies/sex we're expected to throw on the brakes. And really, what could be more natural than being curious about bodies?

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

boomerang wrote:
I'm not really sure how Playboy, et al, fits into this but maybe it removes some of the mystery of it all.

I hope it does, because I don't see any value in sex being a mystery.

Apart from that, just as a matter of policy, I think it's wrong to deliberately misinform people. Especially if your specific intent is to keep them ignorant about a matter so important as sex, and especially when these people are your own kids --- who are at your mercy, who trust you, and whom you purport to love.

Do you see any value in violence being a mystery?

It's but one small step below sex as a human imperative.

Forgive me for treading in regions beyond the gist of your comments.

You are (blithely, I might add) ignoring the fundamental dynamics of the parent and child relationship in favor of the advancement of your notion that sex is good (and of course it is) and full exposure is better (which, of course, it's not).

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but it is alarming to think that such an opinion might be found on a forum in which a troubled single mother is looking for support in her desire to be a "mother," rather than a "friend."

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@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Do you see any value in violence being a mystery?

I guess I don't see the value in it being a mystery. I don't think most parents do -- most of us prepare our kids for understanding what to do should they be confronted with violent situations.

Of course that doesn't mean that I'm going to beat him up to teach him about it anymore than it means I'm going to have sex with him to teach him about sex, or do drugs with him to teach him about drugs.

Kids only need to pick up a newspaper to understand the world is a violent place. Kids deal with hundreds of small violent acts every day -- from watching Tom and Jerry to bullies at school. Violence isn't a mystery to kids at all.

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Side comment on Playboy founder Hefner as when I was in my twenties the man was cool with his life style and his playmates now when I see him with his playmates I think of him as a fool who should had growth up forty years ago and found some more meaning in his life.

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@Thomas,

Just out of curiosity, do you think your European upbringing has an influence on your opinion?

Do you see a big difference between Germany and America on topics such as this?

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@boomerang,

I used to tell my German friends that I would love to get a hold of some German porn to see if when they are talking in the porn if it also sound like they are plotting to invade Poland.

It may just be me but to my English ears any conversation I had ever overhead in German sound like military commands.

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I looked up the "Show Me" book chai mentioned and I think I answered my own question about the difference between Germany and America:

Quote:

Show Me! is a controversial sex education book by photographer Will McBride. It appeared in 1974 in German under the title Zeig Mal!, written with psychiatrist Helga Fleischhauer-Hardt for children and their parents. It was translated into English a year later and was widely available in bookstores on both sides of the Atlantic for many years, but later became subject to expanded child pornography laws in jurisdictions including the United States. In Germany, the book was followed in 1990 by a second edition that included, among other additions, a discussion of the AIDS epidemic.

While many parents appreciated Show Me! for its frank depiction of pre-adolescents discovering and exploring their sexuality, others called it child pornography. In 1975 and 1976, obscenity charges were brought against the publisher by prosecutors in Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, and Toronto, Canada. In all four cases, the judges ruled as a matter of law that the title was not obscene.

However, starting in 1977, some states began to criminalize the distribution of even non-obscene so-called "child pornography," or "images of abuse," which arguably is not protected by the First Amendment. New York State, home of the publisher, St. Martin's Press, criminalized the distribution of non-obscene "child pornography" in 1977, but the publisher promptly went to court and obtained an injunction against the State. The court granted the injunction because the First Amendment was interpreted to permit the banning of only obscene material.

In 1982, the U.S. Supreme Court issued a decision, New York v. Ferber,[1] which allowed the government to constitutionally ban the knowing distribution of even non-obscene "child pornography". Citing a chilling effect, St. Martin's Press then pulled the book, stating that though they believed Show Me! was not pornographic, they could no longer afford the legal expenses to defend it, and they did not want to risk criminal prosecutions of their own personnel and/or vendors who sold the book. The Court overruled a decision of the New York Court of Appeals, The People v. Paul Ira Ferber[1], which held that the First Amendment protected the dissemination of non-obscene sexual depictions. Show Me! was not the direct subject of the Ferber case, but the book was prominently featured by both sides in the litigation, and it played a significant role in the oral argument before the U.S. Supreme Court.[2]

In its country of origin, Germany, the book first won several awards, even from church organisations, but due to rising pressure from a newly arising "moral majority" the publishers and McBride decided to take it off the market in 1996. By then over one million copies in seven languages had been sold. It was never officially banned in Germany. Public libraries there keep it on hand and out of print copies are openly sold at collectors' premium prices.

In New Zealand the book was banned by the Indecent Publications Tribunal in 1976. The ban was upheld in 1996.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_Me!

1 Reply

Would you buy your tween son a "Playboy"?

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