mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2012 04:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
But you are saying he didn't pay enough, or pay his "fair share".
You have nothing to base that on, except your partisan beliefs.

Why aren't you going after every member of congress to release their tax records.
Since your representatives are up for reelection, are you being this demanding about their tax records?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Aug, 2012 04:55 pm
@mysteryman,
You wrote,
Quote:
But you are saying he didn't pay enough, or pay his "fair share".


Both are true; "he didn't pay enough or pay his fair share."

Beyond that, show me where I said such a thing? You can copy and paste from any of my posts.

That's one of many reasons why this country's deficit continues to increase while social services for "all" Americans continues to decline.

0 Replies
 
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 06:51 am
@mysteryman,
Most presidential candidates release more than one. The one he did release had enough fodder to feed the mill making it easy to see why he would be afraid of releasing more. Moreover, now he is making statements regarding tax returns he refuses to release.

Mr. Romney, Here’s why Your Tax Returns Matter

Quote:
Mitt Romney said that he had paid around 13% in taxes annually the past few years, calling false the charge by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid that Romney won’t release his tax returns because they show he paid no income tax in the past decade.

But, Romney was careful not to say that he had paid income tax in the past few years. And, it was income tax that Reid was talking about.

Romney also said he was mystified as to why his tax returns were an issue, given the problems the country faces.

But Romney exemplifies the problem that the country faces. The top 1% of income earners, in the upper sector of which Romney falls, has seen its annual share of national income go from 10% only a few decades ago to over 20% today.

At the same time, the marginal tax rate that this enormously wealthy but small group of some 1.2 million people pay has plummeted to its lowest levels in decades (and much of the tax benefit goes to the richest 400 persons):

Hmm. Small group of people taking much more of national income but paying much less in taxes? What could go wrong?

Thus, the Bush-Cheney tax cuts on the very wealthy have made a significant contribution to our annual budget deficits (Clinton had balanced the budget before Bush and Cheney gave billions away to their rich friends).

Romney paid 13% in federal taxes, but middle class people pay over twice that. Romney and his wealthy buddies have snarfed up much of the income growth that the US has seen in the past two decades, leaving nothing for the middle class.

In fact the average wage of the average worker has declined in the past decade for the first time since WW II.

And, taxes on wage earners have not fallen the same way the tax rates for investors have fallen. Plus the essentials of middle class life such as college tuition, have skyrocketed, in large part because government doesn’t subvent them the way it used to.

So Mitt Romney’s tax breaks and those of the top 1% like him, are a large part of the cause of persistent high budget deficits:

That is why, Mr. Romney, your tax returns are more than personal information about you. They are icons of the growing inequality of America, both in income distribution and in tax rates. Your secretary paid a higher percentage of her income in taxes than you did. And, your tax cuts are harming government’s ability to function, creating artificial crises.

It really is is all about you this time.


(Left the charts out because they take up a lot of space.)

Quote:
UPDATE: 4:50 p.m. -- The Romney campaign clarified to pool reporters later in the day that he was, indeed, "referring to federal income taxes" when he said he paid a rate above 13 percent over the past 10 years.

This solves that riddle. But it's unlikely to quiet those critics who want to see tax returns in order to believe it.


source

The Reid/Romney thing is sideshow in my opinion, the main issue is the tax returns and the reason the are important is said very well above Juan Cole.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 07:06 am
@revelette,

Quote:
(Clinton had balanced the budget before Bush and Cheney gave billions away to their rich friends).

This kind of stuff kinda pisses me off.

Clinton balanced the budget because we had a roaring economy.

Then we had a budget surplus and it seemed to make sense to lower taxes.

Then 9/11 happened and the economy went in the tank.

The biggest problem with the deficits that Bush ran, IMO, was the horribly expensive war in Iraq. A Keynesian government spending approach could be workable, or at least arguable, but Bush's big government spending approach sent all of the money overseas. (And on top of that, it was spent to kill people and blow stuff up.)
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 07:09 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:
Clinton balanced the budget because we had a roaring economy.


Actually it is a lie. Clinton never balanced the budget. All his people did was cheat. They counted the money sitting in social security funds as income for the government. It was nothing more than Enron accounting. They lied to make it look as if the budget was balanced.

This is another one of those things that when repeated over and over people take to be factual when in reality it never happened. Which is why I push so strongly for people to fact check and do their homework.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 07:29 am
@DrewDad,
Actually I think they gave surplus rebate checks and then once the economy started suffering, they lowered taxes. The reason given was to spur the economy which ended up having the opposite effect in some part because of wars and 9/11.

DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 07:40 am
@revelette,
Weren't the rebate checks due to the tax cuts being passed mid-year?
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 08:34 am
@DrewDad,
I am not sure, I thought it was about the first thing he did. But I think you are right, it was after the tax cut, which was a stupid thing to do. All I remember was hearing words like "its your money..."

Apparently Bush had a tax plan based on the 1999 surpluses and by the time he came into office in 2001, the surpluses were disapearing but he still went ahead as though nothing was changing.


Bush Tax Cuts Had Little Positive Impact on Economy


All of that does not change the fact that the Bush tax cuts which Obama extended did favor the rich and it didn't improve the economy or make people who own the companies hire more workers, nor did rebates amount to much in the economy but just drained money out which we later really needed.

0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 09:35 am
@Krumple,
Say, you mind providing some evidence for that assertion?

(Factcheck.org says you're an idiot, btw. Something I'm inclined to agree with.)

The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton
Krumple
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 09:39 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Say, you mind providing some evidence for that assertion?

(Factcheck.org says you're an idiot, btw. Something I'm inclined to agree with.)

The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton


I would but I have been noticing a trend on this site for quite some time now. That suggest you wouldn't even care if I did. Sure I can easily provide the data to back up my claims but I bet you that you won't care about it and no one else will. So you honestly don't really want me to provide any data to back up my claim. I guess we will see. Give me some time to formulate my data for you. I don't have all the time in the world to supply data to people who really don't care about it.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 09:47 am
@Krumple,
In other words, you got nuthin.

TTFN
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 09:57 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Which is why I push so strongly for people to fact check and do their homework.


you should be pleased that someone factchecked your statements
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 09:59 am
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
Give me some time to formulate my data for you. I don't have all the time in the world to supply data to people who really don't care about it.


someone factchecks your statements (when you say people don't factcheck) and you might reciprocate ?

Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 10:18 am
Quote:
I would but I have been noticing a trend on this site for quite some time now. That suggest you wouldn't even care if I did. Sure I can easily provide the data to back up my claims but I bet you that you won't care about it and no one else will. So you honestly don't really want me to provide any data to back up my claim. I guess we will see. Give me some time to formulate my data for you. I don't have all the time in the world to supply data to people who really don't care about it.


Try us.
Take your time

Joe(so far it's only been a couple of hours)Nation
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 10:20 am
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

Say, you mind providing some evidence for that assertion?

(Factcheck.org says you're an idiot, btw. Something I'm inclined to agree with.)

The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton


The graphs were collected from the US treasury site.
reference: http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPDLogin?application=np

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/Kassa10/f818349b.png

There are two concepts that need to be mentioned which go into what makes up the national debt. The public debt and the intergovernmental holdings. The public debt is made up of things like savings bonds, treasury bills and anything else the public can purchase from the government.

The Intragovernmental holdings is when the government borrows money from itself, usually from social security (which is why it is bankrupt). But not always just this form. Recently the US has been buying it's own treasury bills, basically selling debt to itself and then buying it back. A crime in itself but no one calls them on it.

So the claimed surpluses for the last four fiscal years under clinton are as follows:

http://i1061.photobucket.com/albums/t478/Kassa10/53708d34.png

You can see when the public debt went down in each of those four years the intragovernmental holdings went up each year by a larger amount. The national debt which is the public debt plus the intragovernmental holdings, went up. Here is the discrepancy.

So the claim is that under clinton he paid down the national debt which is completely false as you can see the national debt went up every single year. What clinton did was paid down the public debt but claimed surplus is close to the decrease in the public debt for those years. But he paid down the public debt by borrowing the money from the intragovernmental holdings which at the time was mostly in the form of social security.

Here is a quote from an article at CBS at the time the claims were being made.
Quote:
Over the past 25 years, the government has gotten used to the fact that Social Security is providing free money to make the rest of the deficit look smaller," said Andrew Biggs, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute.


The thing is it might not have been directly thought out plan by clintion because the social security administration was legally required to take all surplus and buy US government securities and then sell those securities which then becomes intragovernmental holdings.

The economy was doing well at that time because of the dot com bubble and people were earning a lot of money and thus paying a lot of money into social security. Since social security had more money coming in than what it was paying out all the "extra" surplus social security funds there was no need for the government to borrow more money directly from the public. So the public debt went down while the intragovernmental holdings continued to sky rocket.

So what resulted? The national debt most definiately did not get paid down because we did not have a surplus and the government covered it's deficit by borrowing money from social security rather than the public.



Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 10:23 am
Meanwhile:

Hi Mitt, It's me. Do the letters OVDI mean anything to you, other than looking like Roman numerals? "Overseas Voluntary Disclosure Initiative" . It was back in 2009, you probably don't remember.
The IRS gave a amnesty to anyone who had hidden accounts overseas to report them and pay any taxes due without penalty (even though even having such an account could constitute a felony, but that's why it was called an amnesty.)
Okay so, could we pretty please with sugar on top see your 2009 Tax Return, you don't even have to come up with the other bits of the 2011 you haven't released yet, just 2009, okay.

So we can see just how a big a crook, er, overseas investor, you are.

Thanks, Your Friend,
Joe(good to his mother)Nation
Joe Nation
 
  3  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 11:08 am
@Krumple,
I'm going to let Drew Dad reply first and then I have some questions.

It seems you are saying two different things re: Social Security, oops, I may have spilled the beans.

Joe(Call the bean counters!)Nation
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 12:08 pm
@Krumple,
Debt owed is a different beast from whether revenues exceeded what the government payed out.

You're comparing apples to oranges.

The government took in more money than it spent for four years, and that's a surplus.

Should the surplus have been used to pay down the debt? Frankly, I don't think it could have been used that way, since government debt is in the form of treasury notes that have a pre-determined payout.
revelette
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 12:10 pm
@Joe Nation,
Quote:
Dear Matt:
I am writing to ask again that the Governor release multiple years of tax returns, but also to make an offer that should address his concerns about the additional disclosures. Governor Romney apparently fears that the more he offers, the more our campaign will demand that he provide. So I am prepared to provide assurances on just that point: if the Governor will release five years of returns, I commit in turn that we will not criticize him for not releasing more -- neither in ads nor in other public communications or commentary for the rest of the campaign.

This request for the release of five years, covering the complete returns for 2007-2012, is surely not unreasonable. Other Presidential candidates have released more, including the Governor's father who provided 12 years of returns. In the Governor's case, a five year release would appropriately span all the years that he has been a candidate for President. It would also help answer outstanding questions raised by the one return he has released to date, such as the range in the effective rates paid, the foreign accounts maintained, the foreign investments made, and the types of tax shelters used.

To provide these five years, the Governor would have to release only three more sets of returns in addition to the 2010 return he has released and the 2011 return he has pledged to provide. And, I repeat, the Governor and his campaign can expect in return that we will refrain from questioning whether he has released enough or pressing for more.

I look forward to your reply.

Jim Messina

Obama for America Campaign Manager


source

The request was denied. (on same source)
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Aug, 2012 12:30 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:
someone factchecks your statements (when you say people don't factcheck) and you might reciprocate ?


I did and I do. But no one else does.
0 Replies
 
 

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