Rockhead
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 06:48 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
take out all the strawmen and hyperbole and say what you really mean, fiiny.

you agree that her comments are fair game.

and you think all evil poor folks want to be like the silly rich folks.

and you dislike me.

what else?
snood
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:06 pm
Finn:
Quote:
"Criticisim by the Right of Michelle Obama has been completely limited to her actions as First Lady. "


Right-wing critics scoff at Michelle’s Target trip
October 1, 2011 1:00AM

Rush Limbaugh: Michelle Obama 'Doesn't Look Like' She Eats Healthy Foods
02/21/11 01:41 PM ET

Right-Wing Blogs Attack Michelle Obama Over Appearance On Nickelodeon
January 4, 2012

Megyn Kelly discusses whether President and Ms. Obama’s decision to wear red to dinner with Chinese Premier Hu Jintao was offensive.
2:29 pm, January 21st, 2011

There's a lot more where that come from...

You care to re-state, Finn?
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:13 pm
@snood,
Quote:
Rush Limbaugh: Michelle Obama 'Doesn't Look Like' She Eats Healthy Foods


Heellllo.

You should get her on your diet, Rush.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:26 pm
@Rockhead,
What else?

Nothing.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  3  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:37 pm
This from Fox News
Quote:
by continuing to resist disclosing at least the past 12 years of tax returns, as his dad did in 1968 — 44 years ago — Mitt Romney forgets the inevitable consequence of violating the fundamental rule of crisis management mentioned above: It’s not the bad news, but the cover-up (and the inevitable drip-drip-drip of the story continuing day-by-day) that does you in.

One can’t count how many times we have seen that mistake made in business, politics and life — from Nixon’s “modified limited hangout” in Watergate to the disingenuous Susan G. Komen announcement about cutting off funding for Planned Parenthood to the recent chairman of the board of the University of Virginia deciding she could replace the president of the school behind closed doors, literally in the dark of night, and get away with it.

When will they ever learn?

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/07/19/what-romney-must-do-with-his-tax-returns/#ixzz217eWIpO5


Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:41 pm
@snood,
No, why would I?

Which of these links that you've provided me are relative to pre-White House Michelle?

Oh wait, I'm a backward racist and so can't (or won't ) see how questioning the proflicacy of Michelle is racism.

Damn it, a black woman should trade on the White House every bit as much as a white woman!

Good for Michelle in her profligate travels, because she took it real to the excesses of white First Ladies like Nancy Reagan.



Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:41 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:

No doubt you're pissed at the DNC for putting an end to their ads that feature Ann Romney's hobby/therapy of dressage.


Aw, those were lame ads to begin with.

Quote:

No matter what her hobbies and indulgences cost, they haven't cost the American tax-payer a red nickel...unlike those of our current First Lady.


Woah there. Romney did manage to turn that horse into a 77k tax break on his 2010 taxes. That DOES cost us money.

Quote:
If an when your tax-dollars go to feeding her horses, then your complaints will have substance


So, given the above, you agree they do have substance?

Quote:
Criticizing Ann Romney for anything she says on behalf of her husband during this campaign, is fair game too.


That is what we were doing above... personally, I think she seems like a nice lady, other than maybe a tad bit of an entitlement problem.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 07:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Blah, blah, blah....
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  6  
Reply Thu 19 Jul, 2012 09:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Are you trying to say the right has been hands-off of Michelle's life pre-white house?
Seriously?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 12:41 am
@snood,
Yes
snood
 
  5  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 06:19 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
She was attacked for activities and writing she did in school in college in the 80s. How does that square with your superior Republican ethic?

Michelle Obama Thesis was on Racial Divide
By: Jeffrey Ressner
Feb 22, 2008 04:20 PM EST

More Obama College Tapes: Michelle Obama a Race Agitating Occupier?
March 7, 2012 - 7:25 pm - by J. Christian Adams

Michelle Malkin described Michelle Obama as"steeped in the politics of the Daley machine," and as having based her professional career on nepotism and "old white boy" network connections.
-From Wikipedia, under the heading “Books” – describing chapter two of Malkin’s Book “Bitter Half: First Crony Michelle Obama"

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 07:18 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Criticisim by the Right of Michelle Obama has been completely limited to her actions as First Lady.

Now that is funny. How out of touch with reality are you?

I guess Michelle's decision to wear red and the attacks that she was a communist for doing so were limited to "her actions as First Lady".

When Michelle as accused of killing pedestrians by promoting fitness that was merely limited to "her actions as First Lady".

And then of course if we go back to before she was the first lady, we have all those attacks on her for her job, how much money she was being paid while doing no work.
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 07:37 am
@parados,
Facts will never be adequate to deter Finn. He knows what he knows, dammit, and no so-called "fact" is going to change his mind.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 08:13 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Which of these links that you've provided me are relative to pre-White House Michelle?


google Michelle Obama + 2006 - you'll get all the entertainment you desire - her job and income got some serious focus from the haters

google Michelle Obama + clothing or Michelle Obama + body

there was a fair bit of not-positive commentary going on there, pre-White House
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 11:03 am
So, the Bain issue isn't going away for Romney just yet:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/mitt-romney-and-bain-a-fact-checker-collection/2012/07/19/gJQAsihcwW_blog.html

Quote:

56
Comments
GOP Candidates
Mitt Romney and Bain: a Fact Checker collection
Posted by Glenn Kessler at 06:02 AM ET, 07/20/2012

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(Nicholas Kamm/AFP/GETTY IMAGES)

“I had no role whatsoever in the management of Bain after I went off to the Olympics and that`s been demonstrated by people who work at Bain, by all of the documents but I still retained an ownership interest. . . . I had no involvement with the management of Bain Capital after February of 1999.”

— Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney, interview with CBS News, July 13, 2012

Given the extensive interest in the question of when Mitt Romney stopped managing Bain Capital, we have compiled a summary of 11 Fact Checker columns that assessed claims that, at least in part, needed to deal with this question. We evaluated each claim on a case-by-case basis, so the Pinocchio count has varied depending on the importance of the 1999-2002 period to the facts at hand.

At the end of this column we also provide some additional commentary on this question, especially in light of Romney’s assertion that that he had “no role whatsoever” in the management of Bain after February, 1999.

“Mitt Romney and 100,000 jobs: an untenable figure” (Jan. 10. 2012)

Claim: Romney said that businesses in which Bain had invested had created “net-net” more than 100,000 jobs.

Findings: Bain was about wealth creation, not job creation. Moreover, the claim is based on the current employment of some companies, long after Bain owned them or Romney managed the firm. We concluded: “The Romney campaign needs to provide a real accounting of how many jobs were gained or lost through Bain Capital investments while the firm managed these companies — and while Romney was chief executive. Any jobs counted after either of those data points simply do not pass the laugh test.”

Rating: 3 Pinocchios






“Four Pinocchios for ‘King of Bain’” (Jan. 13. 2012)

Claim: A 25-minute attack ad by a pro-Newt Gingrich Super PAC claims Romney was involved in “stripping Americans business of assets, selling everything to the highest bidder and often killing jobs for big financial rewards.”

Findings: Highly misleading. We found that interviews for one segment were conducted under false pretenses. “Only one of the four case studies directly involves Romney and his decision-making [before 1999], while at least two are completely off point.”

Rating: 4 Pinocchios






“The Obama campaign’s suspect claim about Romney’s role in store closings.” (Jan. 18. 2012)

Claim: Romney closed more than 1,000 plants, stores and offices.

Findings: This mostly concerned the bankruptcy of KB Toys, and this was the first time we delved deeply into the Securities and Exchange Commission documents that have become an issue in recent days. Bain invested in KB Toys in 2000, and the company went bankrupt in 2004, past the period when Romney appeared to be actively managing Bain. “The financial filings suggesting Romney still had some measure of control at Bain from 1999-2001 give the Obama campaign opportunities to raise doubts. … Romney’s record when he was running Bain is certainly fair game, but any deals made after 1999 just shouldn’t count.”

Rating: 3 Pinocchios






“Mitt Romney: Medicare fraud allegations and ‘Blood Money’” (Jan. 30. 2012)

Claim: An attack ad by pro-Gingrich Super PAC alleges a Medicare scandal at a firm partly owned by Bain.

Findings: The case is certainly a valid subject for scrutiny of Romney’s business record, since it took place entirely before 1999. He was on the company’s board at the time criminal fraud was taking place, and his statements about his knowledge of the federal investigation have been inconsistent. But the film goes too far in suggesting that Romney was responsible for running the company — or that he sold it to avoid a federal probe.

Rating: 2 Pinocchios






“Does Mitt Romney love outsourcing?” (May 4, 2012)

Claim: Obama campaign ad alleges, among other things, that “as a corporate CEO, Romney shipped American jobs to places like Mexico and China.”

Findings: The outsourcing examples cited by the Obama campaign largely occurred in 2000 and 2001, after Romney had left to run the Winter Olympic Games in Salt Lake City. There were other assertions that we had previously debunked, though one was deemed “technically right.”

Rating: 2 Pinocchios






“Romney and Bain Capital: the Obama campaign’s newest ad” (May 15, 2012)

Claim: Obama campaign attack ad focuses on a steel company that Bain invested in — and then it went bankrupt.

Findings: Bain Capital was clearly involved in the company’s decisions to greatly add to its debt load — decisions that were made while Romney was actively running Bain. That debt may have contributed to the company’s failure to weather a steep decline in steel prices, but it was not the only factor that led to the company’s bankruptcy filing. Although the bankruptcy occurred in 2001, when Romney was at the Olympics, we determined that his decisions set the company on its course.

Rating: 1 Pinocchio





“Mitt Romney’s claim that 100,000 auto jobs have been lost under Obama” (May 18, 2012)

Claim: Romney says that he created 100,000 jobs in the private sector but that Obama lost 100,000 jobs in the auto industry.

Findings: Not only is his claim of creating 100,000 jobs at Bain untenable, because it includes jobs created after 1999, but also his assertion that 100,000 jobs have been lost in the auto industry “on the president’s watch” does not add up. Auto jobs have actually grown under Obama.

Rating: 4 Pinocchios






“An out-of-context view of Romney’s time at Bain Capital” (May 24, 2012)

Claim: Obama campaign video about Bain’s investment in Ampad alleges that Bain cut workers’ pay and benefits after it took over the company, which then went bankrupt.

Findings: The Obama campaign ad depicts the facts fairly straight. It is not entirely clear how much Romney was responsible for the decision to treat the workers in this manner, but he was the chief executive, so he certainly has the ultimate responsibility. “The Ampad transaction, until its final days, also largely tracks with Romney’s active leadership of Bain, making it fair game for scrutiny of his record as a business executive.”

Rating: 1 Pinocchio






“The latest Romney claim about Bain Capital” (May 30, 2012)

Claim: Romney quotes Bain Capital as saying 80 percent of its investments grew their revenues during its ownership.

Findings: The statistic is dubious, because it appears to count companies that had early revenue growth but then collapsed under a heavy debt burden after Bain unloaded them. Bain refused to say how the statistic was developed. The statistic also does not shed light on Romney’s career there.

Rating: 3 Pinocchios






“4 Pinocchios for Obama’s newest anti-Romney ad” (June 21, 2012)

Claim: Obama campaign ad calls Romney a “corporate raider” who shipped jobs overseas as a businessman, and did so again as governor.

Finding: We had debunked many of these claims before, partly on the grounds that the outsourcing took place after 1999. The term “corporate raider” was sourced to a single Reuters report that the editor said had been a mistake.

Rating: 4 Pinocchios






“More tenuous claims about Romney’s Bain Capital record” (July 11, 2012)

Claim: Pro-Obama Super PAC alleges that “for every company he drove into the ground, Romney averaged a $92 million profit” and that Romney was responsible for 14,000 layoffs.

Findings: Only a relatively small portion of the supposed 14,000 layoffs occurred during Romney’s time with Bain, before 1999, and it’s impossible to know how much blame to pin on the former executive for the remaining losses. Furthermore, the ad misleadingly suggests that Romney himself collected $92 million in profits from bankrupt companies, but all the Bain partners would have shared that money.

Rating: 3 Pinocchios






The Bottom Line

We thank our readers for the many e-mails, comments, tweets, phone calls and letters considering this issue.

We have previously laid out the evidence, pro and con, concerning Romney’s management of Bain after 1999. Our position has been that he effectively stopped managing Bain when he left for his Olympics job. Most important, without direct evidence, we have been reluctant to grant carte blanche to the Obama campaign or Romney’s GOP rivals to assert that Romney had a direct role in Bain deals between 1999 and 2002 (“Romney closed 1,000 stores…”).

However, a case could be made that, with his ownership role shown in SEC documents, he still bore some responsibility. (As far we can tell, Romney has never said that the Bain deals done in that period had problems.)

We strive for the greatest level of accuracy in attack ads. While we cannot definitely prove that Romney did not play a role in Bain deals in 1999, neither can the Obama campaign prove that he did. Our general position has been that the burden of proof rests with the campaign.

But Romney has failed to provide sufficient evidence that he had “no role whatsoever” at Bain. Over the past few days, we have repeatedly asked Bain Capital whether the firm could provide a statement that a review of Bain board meetings had shown that Romney did not attend any such meeting, either in person or by phone. We are still waiting for a response.


[UPDATE: The Boston Globe on July 20 published a lengthy article looking into this period. The reporters did not find evidence Romney was involved in specific deals but reveal a Palm Beach, Fla. meeting that he attended with his partners. The newspaper reported that “by remaining CEO and sole shareholder, Romney held on to his leverage in the talks that resulted in his generous 10-year retirement package…Before he left, tasks were doled out to other partners, including work on an investment committee and a compensation committee. He was not a partner in the new private equity funds launched in 2000 and 2001, meaning he had no role in assessing new investments, his partners said, a departure from his having previously had the final say on every deal….But Romney still had a lot of money on the table; much of his personal wealth was tied up in Bain. And he was still technically in charge.”]

Moreover, as we have previously noted:

— a news release was issued by Bain Capital in July 1999 quoting Romney on the departure of Bain partners. The news release described him as being on “part-time leave of absence.”

— the 1999-2001 annual reports of Staples and Marriott International, on whose boards Romney served, continued to list him as heading Bain and various Bain funds. The descriptions are based on a questionnaire that the board director must personally provide.

So we are at an impasse. Because of the ambiguity, there is considerable room for interpretation of known facts. Going forward, unless new evidence emerges, on a case-by-case basis we may withhold the awarding of Pinocchios when the claim rests mostly on the question of when Romney stopped managing Bain Capital.


The entire point of this matter isn't that Romney attended every board meeting, it is that as CEO of Bain he had responsibility for the actions they took. He held on to the CEO job for his own benefit, but now wants to deny it in order to distance himself from things Bain did during that time period. He can't have it both ways.

Nice to see the fact-checkers come around to this basic truth, though they certainly took long enough to do it.

From the Boston Globe today:

Quote:
Interviews with a half-dozen of Romney’s former partners and associates, as well as public records, show that he was not merely an absentee owner during this period [1999 - 2002]. He signed dozens of company documents, including filings with regulators on a vast array of Bain’s investment entities. And he drove the complex negotiations over his own large severance package, a deal that was critical to the firm’s future without him, according to his former associates.

Indeed, by remaining CEO and sole shareholder, Romney held on to his leverage in the talks that resulted in his generous 10-year retirement package, according to former associates.


http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2012/07/20/what-happened-when-mitt-romney-left-bain-capital-romney-kept-reins-bargained-hard-severance/ZWC9cWdfp0Oh6KbatsCy0K/story.html#share-nav

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 01:40 pm
What? No angst and bitterness-dripping rejoinder from Finn that doesn't admit he's wrong about republicans targeting pre-white house Michelle Obama?

DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 01:55 pm
@snood,
Whenever he's proven to be wrong he goes and sulks for a while. Then he returns with new vitriolic attacks, and never acknowledges his previous errors.
snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 02:39 pm
@DrewDad,
I know. You could almost set your watch by him.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Fri 20 Jul, 2012 10:16 pm
@DrewDad,
That's hardly something that is limited to Finn, boys. You two are no slouches when it comes to that behavior.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Jul, 2012 08:39 am
Very interesting and worth watching for.

Quote:
Prediction: Romney Will Not be the Republican Nominee
Paul Abrams

No one who has received amnesty for a serious crime, such as tax evasion, can be president. One would think that someone for whom the clear implications are that he has received amnesty, but will not release exculpatory documents, also cannot be president.

As the press has been focused on what we now know as Romney's "retroactive retirement", that does not help him escape clear responsibility for his outsourcing strategy anyhow, I have tried to shine a light on the clearest, cleanest, unspinnable, problem with Romney's finances -- amnesty for his Swiss accounts -- suggesting that the Republican leaders, who dislike him anyhow, could not abide such a fatally-flawed nominee.

But, all I had on my side was logic. Why would he have closed only the Swiss Account when the Cayman/Bermuda accounts are also abusive tax havens, and he left those alone? Why would Romney have bothered to close the Swiss account at all? I deduced that what was special about his Swiss Account was the amnesty program allowed by the IRS. I also surmised that it was amnesty, more than anything else, that would keep him from releasing earlier tax returns.

Now, through investigative reporting, there is highly suggestive evidence that the logic was not wrong. Romney failed to disclose the documents he filed with the IRS in 2010, the year he has already released, that detail his Swiss Account holdings.

Hence, I am now prepared to go beyond my suggestions that the Republicans would not give him the nomination to a firm prediction: Romney will not be the 2012 Republican nominee for president. (He may be the "retroactive 2008 nominee" as Darrell Issa, who also cannot run for higher office due to his shady past, suggests).

Who will be? Before Romney is forced to withdraw, he will make a Vice Presidential selection, as an attempt to make it seem that his nomination is just rolling along, and is inevitable.

That person will have been fully vetted, (including his/her tax returns!).

I predict, therefore, that the Republican nominee for president will be the person Romney selects as his VP.

How ironic if that turned out to be T-Paw, who dropped out after losing to Michelle Bachmann in Iowa, (and whom Lawrence O'Donnell picked all along) becomes the 2012 Republican nominee for president! Source
0 Replies
 
 

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