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When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

 
 
Ceili
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 11:58 am
George, I wouldn't think it a stretch to say the average Canadian knows way more about the US than most americans know of canada. More than half of the tv programs we get come out of the US. We get american news, magazines - daily reminders of our neighbours to the south. I don't understand your anger to this statement. It seems fairly obvious to me.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 12:06 pm
Ceili wrote:
George, I wouldn't think it a stretch to say the average Canadian knows way more about the US than most americans know of canada. More than half of the tv programs we get come out of the US. We get american news, magazines - daily reminders of our neighbours to the south. I don't understand your anger to this statement. It seems fairly obvious to me.

Same here in Germany. Most Germans know a lot more about America than the average American knows about Europe. This is not arrogance, it's an observation. I don't think it's the Americans' fault. It probably has much more to do with the fact that a German has six weeks of paid holidays a year while an American has two. That makes it much easier for us to travel to foreign countries and take the time to actually see something.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 16 Mar, 2004 03:58 pm
Quote:
You usually hear about "illegal" Mexican immigrants. Those that are here legally aren't discussed much. There are a lot of Canadians living here in the greater Boston area and if you trace the genealogy of many long term New England families (as well as those all along the northern tier states at least as far west as the Dakotas..) you'll find that most have ancestral ties to Canada. My own family is from Quebec and 90% of my relatives still live there.


Like I said, it is probably different in other places than it is in the southern and middle states.

Genology is becoming a big thing now that it is easier to do isn't it? People on both sides of my family traced our roots back. One side came from France and the other from England.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 11:23 am
Well, to sound arrogant, why should Americans NEED to know about Canada? The US can annhilate everyone in the world at least a dozen times, has one of the leading world economies, makes vast scientific discoveries, and has McDonalds. What has Canada done lately that would make anyone interested?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 11:25 am
McGentrix

I'm rather sure now, why you don't have any neighbours.
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kitchenpete
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 11:40 am
McGentrix wrote:
Well, to sound arrogant, why should Americans NEED to know about Canada? The US can annhilate everyone in the world at least a dozen times, has one of the leading world economies, makes vast scientific discoveries, and has McDonalds. What has Canada done lately that would make anyone interested?


When they say "I hate America", do you think they mean this kind of attitude?


I hope that your tongue is in your cheek but I suspect that it's not...the world always sighs at Americans' lack of a sense of irony. Rolling Eyes
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 01:01 pm
It wasn't mentioned here before, wasn't it?

A new study released Tuesday shows that one year after the start of the Iraq War, dissatisfaction with the United States' foreign policy is still growing around the world.

Quote:
A Year After Iraq War
Mistrust of America in Europe Ever Higher, Muslim Anger Persists

A year after the war in Iraq, discontent with America and its policies has intensified rather than diminished. Opinion of the United States in France and Germany is at least as negative now as at the war's conclusion, and British views are decidedly more critical. Perceptions of American unilateralism remain widespread in European and Muslim nations, and the war in Iraq has undermined America's credibility abroad. Doubts about the motives behind the U.S.-led war on terrorism abound, and a growing percentage of Europeans want foreign policy and security arrangements independent from the United States. Across Europe, there is considerable support for the European Union to become as powerful as the United States.
[...]

Full "Summary of Findings"
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 01:11 pm
kitchenpete wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
Well, to sound arrogant, why should Americans NEED to know about Canada? The US can annhilate everyone in the world at least a dozen times, has one of the leading world economies, makes vast scientific discoveries, and has McDonalds. What has Canada done lately that would make anyone interested?


When they say "I hate America", do you think they mean this kind of attitude?


I hope that your tongue is in your cheek but I suspect that it's not...the world always sighs at Americans' lack of a sense of irony. Rolling Eyes


Hi Pete

I thought this was very funny. Why indeed do you need to know anything about anybody if you can annihilate them several times over!

You are right about irony though. The Americans don't seem to do irony at all. Except to know where those darned I-ronians hang out so they can annihilate them. Laughing
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 05:53 pm
Thomas wrote:
Ceili wrote:
George, I wouldn't think it a stretch to say the average Canadian knows way more about the US than most americans know of canada. More than half of the tv programs we get come out of the US. We get american news, magazines - daily reminders of our neighbours to the south. I don't understand your anger to this statement. It seems fairly obvious to me.

Same here in Germany. Most Germans know a lot more about America than the average American knows about Europe. This is not arrogance, it's an observation. I don't think it's the Americans' fault. It probably has much more to do with the fact that a German has six weeks of paid holidays a year while an American has two. That makes it much easier for us to travel to foreign countries and take the time to actually see something.


I don't believe that the stuff on television, either in the U.S. or in Canada is particularly useful in promoting real understanding about much at all. Certainly seeing too much of the pap on American TV media can dull the sharpest brain, and will hardly inform its viewers about the real interests and dispositions of Americans. Instead it is endless repetition of commercially successful fantasies. Perhaps that can lead to some insights, but a few hours each year are enough for that.

If I communicated anger, I apologize for it. I do believe there is a difference between awareness and understanding. It is strangely commonplace for people in other countries to claim deep understanding of America: I have heard this in Brasil and Malaysia from people who understood almost nothing about this country. I believe it is a result of the ubiquity of American commercial and media products. I will admit I do find it annoying to find in others, who are very willing to criticize us, the claim that, while they understand us very well, we certainly do not understand them.

I believe Thomas is just seizing a moment to have some fun with me over the more liberal working conditions that prevail in Germany. At first I was tempted to hit back with a shot claiming that while Germans must travel to find some pleasure and enjiyment in a vacation, that is less necessary for us, who can readily do so at home. Rhetorically satisfying, but sadly untrue. I have enjoyed my travels in Germany far too much and look forward to my next chance to see the ever new and old Berlin.

I for one do not claim to understand either Canada or Germany more than anyone or their understanding of my home. (And yet I believe I am a pretty well-informed guy.) I do find the obsessions of Canadians on these threads with the many (all too real) defects of American culture and politics a bit odd. I am not that interested in them and don't see any rational basis for them to be so interested in us. The standard retort of course is that "what the U.S. does matters so much" etc. I think that is nonsense.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 05:59 pm
george, I must agree with you about the American media and dull brains. We keep getting those terrorist alerts, and people still think another al Qaida attack is immanent, and continue to live in fear. If they used their brains, they would understand that we have more people dying on our highways every year.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:01 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
It is strangely commonplace for people in other countries to claim deep understanding of America: I have heard this in Brasil and Malaysia from people who understood almost nothing about this country.


Brazilians will, almost unfailingly, know about:

George Washington
Thomas Jefferson

And just about every modern president we have.

They know what language we speak.

They know the names of many of our states.

They know our history almost as well as our average highschool students.

We, in turn, have had a president who visited Brazil and called Brazil Bolivia and Brazilians Bolivians (while in Brazil mind you).

We have a people who for the most part can't name a single Brazilian other than Pelé.

We have a people who for the most part could not point to Brazil (a nation almost as large as the continental US) on the map.

We have a people who for the most part do not know what language is spoken in Brazil.

George, you may be right in that most Brazilians don't truely understand America at all. But when you compare that the the absolute ignorance Americans have of Brazil your point is less convincing.

To add to the above is the unconfirmed story that President Bush asked Brazilian president FHC while visiting Brazil "Do you have blacks here too?".

FHC and co. were kind enough not to confirm this story.

Yes, Brazilians don't understand America in depth. They know the stereotypes about American culture and know out basic history and geography, but Americans know next to nothing about Brazil and Brazilians.

I've lived in both the countries you named, and I'm willing to wager that these people who you say did not truely understand America understand it far far better than you do their countries, but yes, their distance makes it hard for true understanding.

But that's what you call a "pointless point".
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:02 pm
kitchenpete wrote:

...the world always sighs at Americans' lack of a sense of irony. Rolling Eyes


Pete,

I believe that if anything this thread confirms that the irony deficit is outside, not inside our borders.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:05 pm
He did it again! Shocked
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:07 pm
Craven,

I wonder just how much you know about Brasil, or have travelled there. (Voce falla Portuguese?) How much do you know about the United States for that matter? Does your degree of knowledge and understanding match the degree to which you are judgemental and so certain?

I have no wish to get in an endless back and forth with you - only to express the questions above. Don't even want an answer.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:11 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Craven,

I wonder just how much you know about Brasil, or have travelled there. (Voce falla Portuguese?)

He didn't really just say that did he? Shocked
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:14 pm
I am sooooo watching in fascination now Shocked

georgeob1 doesn't know, does he?

I'm going to go get some snacks.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:20 pm
He he he he Laughing
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:20 pm
Don't tell me Craven is Brazilian!
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:20 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
Craven,

I wonder just how much you know about Brasil, or have travelled there.


I lived there on thee occasions for spans of years at a time. I just said that I have lived in (not visited) both those countries.

Quote:
(Voce falla Portuguese?)


Fluentemente, a minha soletracão não é uma coisa de tirar orgulho pois apredi a falar falando e não com estudo de livros.

Trabalhei anos como um interpretador traduzindo Português para Inglês ao vivo e em documentos do governo e da maioria das impresas multinacionais que funciona em Brasil.

Quote:
How much do you know about the United States for that matter? Does your degree of knowledge and understanding match the degree to which you are judgemental and so certain?


Actually, I'm not judgemental about American ignorance of foreign affairs. In Brazil I argued stridently against the notion that Americans are willfully ignorant of the world.

Americans know of nations that are in the spotlight just like any other people.

Brazilians know nothing about Mongolia, for example, and know much about America because America makes news.

Brazilians have a chip on their shoulder about being a large country and economy about which we know nothing, but they are partly at fault for being willing to import our culture and for their paltry efforts to export theirs.

Quote:
I have no wish to get in an endless back and forth with you - only to express the questions above. Don't even want an answer.


I've no plans for enless anything. But my point stands, Malaysians and Brazilians might have only superficial knowledge of stereotypical American culture, but this is far more than can be said of most Americans.

My rhetorical wager stands, I bet those people knew more of America than you do of their countries.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Mar, 2004 06:27 pm
As an aside, George, I've lived in more cities in Brazil than most Brazilians have visited in their lifetimes.

That's why the others are doing the taken aback thing.
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