When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

nimh wrote:

Forget what "they" say about America - look at what Americans say about them!

Most of this is the obvious stuff, but can you believe some of it?! I know there's some sour grapes over Iraq, but putting perfectly democratic, bon-vivant, NATO-ally France behind strongman-ruled, cold-and-gruff Russia (which was hardly any friendlier on Iraq)? And struggling-for-democracy, home-of-ancient-civilisation Iran behind home-of-9/11 Saudi-Arabia, Castro-Cuba and Lybia?

France expelled the NATO military command from French territory at a particularly dangerous time in the Cold War - they are most assuredly not regarded as a close NATO ally, despite their pro forma membership in the NATO political council. Over the past 30 years France has wasted very few opportunities to put her finger in our eye. Cicerone's story about the attitudes of some Frenchmen is repeated by numerous American tourists - indeed it is a common cliche.

I think the attitudes towards Russia can be explained by a combination of hope for a better future for and with them and respect for a former dangerous enemy.

As for Iran, you may recall that Iranian revolutionaries seized our embassy in 1979 and held our hostages for over a year. Many here have not forgotten that.

What is perhaps most remarkable in the rankings is the high regard for Canada indicated - despite eight years of insults, ingratitude, and no cooperation from them under the now departed Prime Minister.

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McGentrix wrote:

Way to disparage an entire country at one shot. Has America become the average white guy? Has America become the world's whipping post?

ILZ, you obviously have a personal beef with America and Americans...what happened? Did we drop a bomb on your dog or something?

I am American. I'm just not blind to its problems, which are quite extensive.

Edit: Further, I would submit that it is dissenting voices, such as myself, that are the collective instigators of progressive change. On the other end of the spectrum are the conservatives who - like most people, in most times, in most places - are bound by an irrational blind faith in thier country.

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georgeob1 wrote:

France expelled the NATO military command from French territory at a particularly dangerous time in the Cold War - they are most assuredly not regarded as a close NATO ally

But Russia was the enemy in the Cold War! So if any grudges should remain from back then ...

georgeob1 wrote:

As for Iran, you may recall that Iranian revolutionaries seized our embassy in 1979 and held our hostages for over a year. Many here have not forgotten that.

But Saudi-Arabia was where most all of the perpetrators of the bloodiest and most shocking attack on the US in 60 years (if not ever) came from ... and where most of the money that funded their Al-Qaeda bosses came from, too.

Not to mention that it's an absolute dictatorship and much more barbarian in terms of women's rights ...

I mean, it's formally a geostrategic ally, if you look only at the government-level - but damn - does with-us-or-against-us really trump any measure of (what in terms of western values would be called) civilisation?

georgeob1 wrote:

What is perhaps most remarkable in the rankings is the high regard for Canada indicated - despite eight years of insults, ingratitude, and no cooperation from them under the now departed Prime Minister.

From what I understand it's as peacable, safe, clean, free, democratic and tolerant a country as one can get ... so I guess "civilisation" does sometimes trump with-us-or-against-us after all. Well, that's reassuring ;P

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Nimh,

Do you think the corresponding results of polls in France, Germany, and Belgium would show ay similar anomolies with respect to democracy? We are after all a civilized, democratic country. "With us or against us" cuts two ways.

France is not a 'geostrategic' ally of the United States. At least few people here think that is true.

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georgeob1 wrote:

Nimh,

Do you think the corresponding results of polls in France, Germany, and Belgium would show ay similar anomolies with respect to democracy?

Oh yeah, absolutely.

And they would have me going, "can you believe that?!", too Razz

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IronLionZion wrote:

McGentrix wrote:
Way to disparage an entire country at one shot. Has America become the average white guy? Has America become the world's whipping post?

ILZ, you obviously have a personal beef with America and Americans...what happened? Did we drop a bomb on your dog or something?

I am American. I'm just not blind to its problems, which are quite extensive.

Edit: Further, I would submit that it is dissenting voices, such as myself, that are the collective instigators of progressive change. On the other end of the spectrum are the conservatives who - like most people, in most times, in most places - are bound by an irrational blind faith in thier country.

Being a dissenting voice is fine. We need checks and balances. Calling Americans, en masse, stupid, is not a voice of dissention. In my opinion, it only makes you look like one of those loonie liberals everyone speaks of. Way to be that stereotype...

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McGentrix wrote:

Being a dissenting voice is fine. We need checks and balances. Calling Americans, en masse, stupid, is not a voice of dissention. In my opinion, it only makes you look like one of those loonie liberals everyone speaks of. Way to be that stereotype...

Depending on the criteria you use, it is a demonstrable fact that most Americans are "stupid." For one thing, when stacked up to the rest of the educated world, we routinely come in last. I suppose it is just another one of those pesky facts that get in the way of your blind patriotism - like our morally repulsive foriegn aid policies.

But all you conservatives shouldn't fret. Take comfort in the fact that you are not alone in your ignorance. It is the case in most ages, in most places, that most people are blinded by irrational faith in thier nation, while a small minority of progressive thinkers pushes slowly ahead.

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George, Iran was pretty much justified in seixzing our embassy. they were rather upset about the coup in 1953 (engineered by the US) that toppled their deomcratically elected prime minister (Mossadegh) and gave the Shah absolute power. I don't blame them one little bit.

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ILZ,

You no doubt place yourself in the vanguard of that "small minority of progressive thinkers".

Is it lonely up there? What brought you back here amidst the common, stupid folk?

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McGentrix wrote:

Being a dissenting voice is fine. We need checks and balances. Calling Americans, en masse, stupid, is not a voice of dissention. In my opinion, it only makes you look like one of those loonie liberals everyone speaks of. Way to be that stereotype...

**Insert buzzing sound here**
Sorry, McG. Try again. ILZ was not calling Americans stupid "en masse".
Here's what he said:
I would submit that it is dissenting voices, such as myself, that are the collective instigators of progressive change. On the other end of the spectrum are the conservatives who - like most people, in most times, in most places - are bound by an irrational blind faith in thier country.

So (correct me if I'm wrong here, ILZ) he was talking about the types of people "at either end of the spectrum" when it comes to these things. On one side are those who look more critically at these things, then there are those who refuse to see anything past what blind nationalism will let them see.

Do me a favor and read what he wrote again, with the "hardcore conservative" glasses removed if you can. It makes sense, and is pretty damn close to the truth. If it weren't for dissenting voices, we'd still be following "seperate but equal" doctrines (although I am extending the point a bit to emphasis the basic theme).

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Heywood wrote:

So (correct me if I'm wrong here, ILZ) he was talking about the types of people "at either end of the spectrum" when it comes to these things. On one side are those who look more critically at these things, then there are those who refuse to see anything past what blind nationalism will let them see.

Bingo

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georgeob1 wrote:

ILZ,

What brought you back here amidst the common, stupid folk?

Yeah, I'm magnanimous with my intellect. Think of me as the internet equivalent of Robin Hood; spreading my riches to the intellectually poor and intuitively inept.

In all seriousness, if you have a problem with anything I say - either here or in in any other thread - I suggest you mount a decent retort instead of poking me with a stick and then running away. For example, see the foriegn aid thread.

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nimh wrote:

But Russia was the enemy in the Cold War! So if any grudges should remain from back then ...

We Americans always have this feeling towards former foes. There is something in the American character that loves to make friends with former enemies:
Great Britain (took two wars but we made them great friends)
Germany (again, took two wars but all we wanted to do was become friends)
Italy
Japan (became our friends after we defeated them)
Russia (after a long 'Cold War', once we became the victors, all we wanted to do was become their friends)

We love trying to make friends with our enemies, but God save us from our 'longtime friends'

georgeob1 mentioned about France kicking out the NATO command from France during the Cold War, but he didn't mention when France REALLY stuck a knife in NATO's back.

France had pledged a military commitment of 12 divisions to assist NATO in event of a Soviet invasion of the West and NATO war plans were drawn up around the assistance of those 12 divisions.
A division in western armies had, for 60+ years, been defined as a unit of 3 or more brigades consisting of a total of 12 to 15,000 men.
The French command, to avoid committing that many troops to NATO as they had promised, 're-defined' their 'division' to be ONE brigade of 4 to 5000 men. This is how they got around their treaty commitment.

As I said before, we love our former enemies, but God save us from our allies!

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georgeob1 wrote:

What is perhaps most remarkable in the rankings is the high regard for Canada indicated - despite eight years of insults, ingratitude, and no cooperation from them under the now departed Prime Minister.

I find this extremely amusing! Remember this the next time the US government threatens Canada with their consequences. That word "cooperate" is one word that I've grown to detest from all the years of hearing it when I lived there and from the government. It is not our duty to cooperate with the all mighty US of A! We are a peaceful country and we intend on keeping it that way, whether you like it or not.

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Montana, George Bush lost "peach" for our country for the next generation, because he's created new enemies for the US of A that will not go away with a change in our administration this November.

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I agree CI, but can you imagine how much worse it can get if he ends up in there for another term. Just the thought makes my skin crawl.

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Fedral wrote:

As I said before, we love our former enemies, but God save us from our allies!

That's exactly how I feel about our alliance with the US.

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georgeob1 wrote:

What is perhaps most remarkable in the rankings is the high regard for Canada indicated - despite eight years of insults, ingratitude, and no cooperation from them under the now departed Prime Minister.

Just what are you on about? I really don't think you know what you're talking about based on the statements you made that I first addressed in this thread. For one thing, the previous Prime Minister, Jean Chrétien, was leader of Canada for just over 10 years, not eight. The only insult I'd ever heard of was the one I mentioned in my earlier post. Ingratitude? Ingratitude for what!! Mind explaining that one? And the only "no cooperation" was the decision of Canada to not join in on the war on Iraq. It was an unjust war. While I feel for the military personnel and their families, I feel they were mislead by their president.

You keep referring to all of these negative aspects of the previous government in Canada, but you aren't backing it up with concrete examples so I have to wonder what it is you really know about the whole situation.

When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

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