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When They say "I hate America", what do you think They mean?

 
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 08:25 pm
There may be some classy Texas sirens in the land of the maples and loons.......if only the eye could see. These same Texans may be lighthearted secular evangelical judgementalists. But surely the Canadians are more irratable than the 34 y.o. young men who cannot get laid. But then, some people are too big for their britches.......(not sayin who.)
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 08:30 pm
I'm of the opinion that these kinds of discussions between the canuks and mercans are okay and encouraged. Isn't that what families and good friends do? We can always agree to disagree, but please keep the discussion on-going.
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ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 08:31 pm
FLQ - Front de libération du Québec

That was over 30 years ago.

I'm thinking georgeob1 had something different in mind. Maybe that event with the flags and such, that the current patronage flap is related to.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 09:08 pm
blatham wrote:


Actually, I wasn't trying to communicate Canadian advice to America for America's own internal cultural and social decisions.

But you see, that IS what happened, only in reverse, when your drug czar came visiting us. True, he didn't threaten trade sanctions, but your ambassador did.


If Canada were to legalize pot, that would create a serious law enforcement problem for us which could be solved only by tougher enforcement at our border. I believe that, and not trade sanctions per se, was the topic addressed by our Ambassador. A good deal of coordinated manufacturing goes on between Michigan, New York and Ontario, some invoilving just-in-time delivery of parts and components for large industries. The requirement for more stringent border inspections could seriously disrupt all that. Were this to occur, Canada would be the economic loser.

The question of the legalization of pot is a legitimate one for each country to address on its own. However, in this case it is Canada that is (or was) proposing to alter the status quo, not the U.S. Canada raised hell after "discovering" that the United States didn't intend to adopt a similar measure (we are after all an independent country).

Self-righteous, self-induilgent hypocricy !
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Montana
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2004 11:06 pm
georgeob1 wrote:
blatham wrote:


Actually, I wasn't trying to communicate Canadian advice to America for America's own internal cultural and social decisions.

But you see, that IS what happened, only in reverse, when your drug czar came visiting us. True, he didn't threaten trade sanctions, but your ambassador did.


If Canada were to legalize pot, that would create a serious law enforcement problem for us which could be solved only by tougher enforcement at our border. I believe that, and not trade sanctions per se, was the topic addressed by our Ambassador. A good deal of coordinated manufacturing goes on between Michigan, New York and Ontario, some invoilving just-in-time delivery of parts and components for large industries. The requirement for more stringent border inspections could seriously disrupt all that. Were this to occur, Canada would be the economic loser.

The question of the legalization of pot is a legitimate one for each country to address on its own. However, in this case it is Canada that is (or was) proposing to alter the status quo, not the U.S. Canada raised hell after "discovering" that the United States didn't intend to adopt a similar measure (we are after all an independent country).

Self-righteous, self-induilgent hypocricy !


If Cellucci made threats about the pot issue, then I missed that one. The threats I'm taking about is when he made a speech about how disapointed America was that Canada has decided not back the US is their war and he said that there would be consequenses for Canada. When asked what those consequenses were, he said "you'll just have to wait and see"!
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 12:04 am
Montana and george

Threats were made on both subjects, actually. And that's not unusual. For example, a proposed move in New Zealand a few years back to liberalize marijuana laws brought a response from the US which was effectively a threat to ruin their sheep industry.

Quote:
The question of the legalization of pot is a legitimate one for each country to address on its own. However, in this case it is Canada that is (or was) proposing to alter the status quo, not the U.S. Canada raised hell after "discovering" that the United States didn't intend to adopt a similar measure (we are after all an independent country).

Self-righteous, self-induilgent hypocricy !


Gosh, I like that final sentence. And it has one of these!

But, since when does simply 'altering the status quo' generate sufficient cause for anything? The American constitution was an alteration of the status quo, but so was that loathsome emergence of the first loaf of WonderBread. Or the policy of pre-emptive unilateral war.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 12:29 am
Preemptive war is as old as human history.

Don't know the details of the supposed "threats", however on the drugs issues the response would appropriately be stiffer inspection of trade goods and people coming from the country with relaxed controls. That is certainly our right, and if it happens it will be the result of Canadian initiatives.

Even a small delay at the Detroit and Buffalo border crossings would have a very serious effect on Canadian manfacturing in support of the auto industry. I do not believe that the U.S. government would threaten or enact trade sanctions in retaliation for Canadian legalization of pot. However they have made very clear their intent to enact stricter border controls if Canada takes this step, and I can readily believe Canada would correctly see this as adversely impacting their trade. You make your choices and you take the consequences. It is childish to blame others.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 01:19 am
"Kill them first" is as old as human history. the precedent of legal basis and codification of "pre-emption" is a very recent development.

By very recent i mean the wane of the British empire and the culmination was in even more recent history with Isreal.

Yes, in human history there has always been those quick to decide to try to kill perceived enemies.

But in the civilized age "pre-emption" has been recognized as a dangerous method that can be usurped. And it has traditionally been conservatively sanctioned because of the facility with which it can be used as a pretext.

In almost any legal codification of "preemption" caution is a prevalent theme.

I think George tells only half the story by saying "pre-emption" has always been with us.

He's right that it has, but neglects to point out that with civilization it has become much more strictly defined and is a recent development.
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IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 01:24 am
Craven de Kere wrote:
"Kill them first" is as old as human history. the precedent of legal basis and codification of "pre-emption" is a very recent development.


Damn you for bringing me so close to using the smiley emoticon.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 01:54 am
george

The drug issue came up as an example of why a Canadian citizen might think the US a tad insufferable. Forget the marijuana liberalization thing - you are getting stuck at the border.

Take instead the proposal by my city's mayor to open a safe injection site as one part of a program to minimize the harms associated with intravenous drug use. Your drug czar came to Vancouver and did what he could to stop the plan.

Why? Well, first, because the US is NUTS on the subject of drugs. Now that's a big conversation, but if we had it, carefully and fully, you wouldn't win it if you argued that US policy is either consistent or empirically justifiable, or morally justifiable for that matter.

But to get back to the insufferable part...it's the presumption underlying his visit...that his (his nation's) values re social arrangements were superior to those that Canada's citizens were choosing for themselves, and that we needed his patronization on the matter.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 02:15 am
The legal basis for pre-emption
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 02:24 am
Hmmm - much as I agree with you Blatham - I think that you are being a tad harsh.

Given that the US is, as you say, nuts on drugs, it is logical that the official concerned would have qualms about what he and his ilk see as a slippery slope of toleration happening in Canada - which they would be concerned would increase over-border drug operations for the US to be worried about.

I am sure he DOES think the US's social arrangements better than Canada's - or anyone else's - but, given the US's concerns, I think they had a right to express them - I am not sure that this can be regarded as NECESSARILY stemming from patronization. (Is that a word?)

To be fair, we all feel at liberty to tell the US off.

I am sure we TRY to be patronizing, at times - but, at least in Oz's case - it is hard for a mouse to effectively patronize an elephant.....

Reminds me of a joke, that...
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 02:44 am
Craven de Kere wrote:


So whadjya studying....law history or summin'?
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 02:53 am
No, just casual reading for curiosity's sake that became more interesting after the invasion of Iraq.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 02:57 am
You must enjoy dry reading. Razz
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 03:21 am
Only if I'm interested. The legal documents were dry but the case studies fascinating.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 03:42 am
I'll take your word for it. Wink
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 08:00 am
caprice,

You are right that the Vietnam era is similar to this era. Both wars were of choice and both caused an awful lot of controversy.

I have only started paying so much attention to the news since the Clinton scandal so I was more or less going by that in my mind. (I know that admission don't do much for my credibility) I watched it a little during the Clarence Thomas hearings and the Iran Contra (?) hearings, but I didn't really start getting caught up with it so to speak until the Clinton thing. I guess because I could see the start of an era that caused me a lot of concern. People scoffed at Hillary Clinton when she mentioned the "vast right wing conspiracy" but I agreed with her and now we are controlled by them and so the rest of the world has to feel the effects of it too since the US effects the rest of the world.

I personally think pot (a lot easier to spell)should be legal along with other drugs. If people want to pollute their bodies that is their business. If the reason we outlaw recreational drugs is because of the actions that those on drugs do then we should outlaw alcohol as well. I haved lived with an alcoholic for over 20 years (on and off mostly on) so I know first hand that it is as bad as a drug addiction.
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georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 08:12 am
I don't think anyone in the U.S. government is particularly interested in the choices Canada makes for its own social and legal structures in themselves. You are free to do as you wish. However the matter of drugs legalization does indeed affect us directly in terms of managing illicit traffic at the border. We are, and have every right to be, interested in that. I have no interest in debating the drugs matter. Both Canada and the United States are free to make the choices they have made with respect to these internal issues. However, Canada has no right to unilaterally create such a major difference in its treatment of such a contentious issue and expect us to take no action at the border. It is worse still to mischaracterize this as trade sanctions.

The formalities of declarations of war developed in the early 18th century and continued through the 19th century and until WWI, which was also 'declared' in this sense. Since then none - not one - of the many wars of the 20th century have been so 'declared' by any of their many participants from France and the UK to the Soviet Union (Hungary & Czechoslovakia), India and Pakistan, India and China, to North Korea or North Vietnam and many others: each was started by the preemptive action one (or both) of the antagonists. Indeed this 18th and 19th century practice is the exception to the historical rule.

In any war the party initiating the armed hostilities can be said to have "preempted" the conflict, with or without such a declaration. Craven is in a semantical tailspin.

Historians generally note the "civilized era" as having begun in 800 BC (or earlier) and the modern era as the start of the 15th century.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2004 10:12 am
Quote:
Some of the loudest squeals of disapproval have come from south of the border. John Walters, head of the Office of National Drug Control Policy, has repeatedly lashed out at Canada for considering changes in its marijuana laws, as has US Ambassador Paul Celluci. Walters has been warning for months that Canadian decriminalization would cause a boom in US consumption. "It's a multibillion-dollar industry and most of the production is headed south," he said in May. At the time, he praised countries such as Mexico and Colombia, which supported eradication, but "Canada seems to be going in another direction." A few days later, he weighed in again. "We'll respond to the threat," he told a cable news show. "What we have to do is protect Americans and right now, this is out of control."

Cellucci, meanwhile, has raised ominous concerns that decriminalization could tie up the busy US-Canadian border, of key importance to the Canadian economy. He was at it most recently in Edmonton, Alberta, December 10, telling reporters decrim could mean problems. "Our concern is the perception of this is that this is a weakening of the law... that it will be easier to get marijuana in Canada," he said. "Our customs and immigration officers, they're law-enforcement officers. If they think it's easier to get marijuana in Canada, they're going to be on the lookout for it. That's going to put pressure on the border at a time when we've been trying to take pressure off it. We don't want to have a lot of young people having their vehicles inspected when they're crossing the border."

Canadian politicians, however, don't think much of such rhetoric. In an interview published on November 14, Vancouver, British Columbia Mayor Larry Campbell, formerly a narcotics officer with the Mounties then Vancouver's coroner, told Drug War Chronicle, "[John Walters] is probably the most misinformed person in the whole United States." In July 2002, following a visit to Canada by US Rep. Mark Souder, Member of Parliament Libby Davies, responding to Souder's claim that marijuana is as dangerous as cocaine, told the Canadian Press, " My God, what is this man talking about? We can't be subservient to the ridiculous rhetoric coming out of the United States."

In fairness to Canada, it should be pointed out that two-thirds of the US population lives in states where marijuana possession has been decriminalized. In Ohio, for instance, possession of up to a quarter-pound is punishable by only a fine. According to Mayor Campbell, in fact, " [m]ost US states have more liberal policies on marijuana than we do."
http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle/canada/index.shtml

1) to deny the element of financial threat implicit in the statements of Cerlucci and Walters is naive or purposefully blind. Further, it doesn't take into account a pattern of US policy and actions on the world scene re 'drugs' (a term more inconsistently defined in US policy than any other I know of, with the possible exception of 'friend')

2) we'll note that Canadian politicians didn't head down to Idaho to muck about with Idaho's decision to lessen penalties for possession. Idahoans might have considered such to be presumptuous, even patronizing, don't you think?

3) As a BC court judge responded to one of Walter's recent lectures, "These guys, with the number of kids they've put into jail, with the drug related crime they have, are going to suggest our drug policies?"

But, this all began as a discussion on why folks around the world might be pissed at the US. The drug issue is relatively minor, just one I've put some study into, but it fits a pattern (worldwide) of bullying and big fat lack of humility.

As I noted elsewhere, several months past, documents were released under our Freedom of Information act here which disclosed negotiations between our government and the US government on prospective weapons systems purchases from US companies. The amount of money our government felt was available to invest in these weapons systems seemed insufficient to the US government negotiators, who suggested we take the money from our social programs. That really encouraged love feelings in we canadians for our neighbors down south.

Frankly, I'm getting a bit weary of this discussion. george, you're a good guy, but your protests are an instance of a national failing - a very real reluctance to admit national wrongs, or to admit to national characteristics which are valid cause for protest from other nations in the world. We've talked about this many times before. It's an extraordinary oddity that the nation which sits at an unchallenged apex of power and wealth in the world, so easily assumes the role of the victim, of the misunderstood and lonely good guy, enemies all about. Talk about self-fulfilling!

Those of us who love the project of the Bill of Rights, who love Americans far more than holding negative notions about them, could nearly rip our hair out trying to get you to view yourselves from a vantage OUTSIDE OF YOUR MYTHOLOGIES ABOUT YOURSELF. And that's what the weariness is all about.
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