South Africa stops West Bank goods being labeled "made in Israel"

Then you should say "some Jews." All Jews, worldwide are not for the "occupation," not even the Jews in Israel. Just like all Christians are not anti-Semites, only some.

Yes, you can, and I can claim to be Santa Claus.

The Romans called the place in Latin Aurelianum (after emperor Aurelian rebuilt the city) or Aureliana Civitas. Which became Orleans in French.

I never implied it was all Jews.

So, Foofie, other than stupid attempts to make me appear anti_Semitic, do you have anything to add to the discussion?

What is YOUR position re the settlers? The occupation? The wall? The labeling decision?

I'll not bother responding to you again unless you add something to the discussion.

The relabeling of goods from the settlements by South Africa amounts to much ado about nothing, or at most, very little, as long as the US continues to give Israel carte blanche in regard to Israel's repression of the Palestinian peoples. Most Americans support this repression to some degree or another, whether it's denial of the Palestinians' Right of Return through support of Israel as an ethnocentric state, or the outright ethnic cleansing of Israel and Palestine of its Arab populations. Relabeled goods just aren't going to change these Americans' attitudes and opinions thereof.

Indeed....but it's a step, don't you think? Or is it your analysis that nothing is worth doing?

Indeed....but it's a step, don't you think? Or is your analysis that nothing is worth doing?

Is there something that you think should be done within the US?

Thanks for that information, Walter. That 's interesting.





David

I have been arguing these points with some Jews on a2k for over ten years to no avail. They will not acknowledge the atrocities perpetrated against Palestinians no matter who the writer is - even Jews, and only offer charges of "anti-Semites" to those of us who have studied this issue. I have visited Israel, and have had the opportunity to talk to a Palestinian woman who's family has lived in Palestine for generations. She told us she doesn't have the freedom to travel in her own country, and we have seen military control points during our travels in Israel.
I have also read a book (The Other Side of Israel) written by a Jew, Susan Nathan, who moved from South Africa to Israel and lived amongst the Palestinians, and she was threatened by other Jews for doing so.

I'm encouraged by the simple fact that many Jews acknowledge the atrocities perpetrated by Zionists in Israel.

It's a tactic that works well, instead of discussing the brutal way the Palestinians are treated, you spend all your time defending yourself from accusations of anti-Semitism.

Standard deflection method. It is used a lot against Jews who happen to publicly not agree 100% with whatever Israeli govt policy or unattractive feature of Israeli society the accuser supports: just call them 'self-hating' Jews. I see in this regard that the people in Israel who called the SA govt minister, Davies, a "leftist Jew" are left looking silly now that it turns out he isn't Jewish. Although if you are a sufficiently idiotic zealot maybe even a Gentile can be a self-hating Jew if you concentrate hard enough.

The crassness is compounded by the fairly widely known (I would have thought) fact that South Africa, like Israel, has the 'cabinet' form of government in which cabinet ministerial responsibility is collective, and ministers don't just make up govt policy as they go along. However I suppose even they would realise that accusing Jacob Zuma of being a 'leftist Jew' was going to be a non-starter.

Since I do not believe in double standards, I believe "the settlers" should be allowed to stay where they are. If that land becomes part of some future Palestinean State, the settlers would be no different than the Muslim immigrants in Europe, United States, Canada, etc., etc. Jews should not have to evacuate Moslem lands. That reflects, in my opinion, the Nazi desire to have Germany Juden frei.

I did not try to make you appear as an anti-Semite. The culture is anti-Semitic, and many people, being a product of that culture, do not care to parse their words for anyone. So, if a statement can be misconstrued as "all Jew" no great loss (being fascitious). By the way, I define "anti-Semitic" to include the feelings of Jews being expendable in the world (current attitude amongst many), which reflects mankinds great propensity to show ingratitude. Jews are not the only ones that face ingratitude: the Catholic Church for bringing civilized thinking to so many heathen, women in general for maintaining the human population when labor was fraught with death, African-Americans for building the early settler docks, homes, etc., etc.

Yes. Rather than have any right of return on any peace negotiating table, offer all Palestineans that believe they should have a right of return the right to become a U.S., Canadian, British, Australian citizen. You see, with the right of return, Israel will stop being a Zionist state, and Jews might as well just go back to Europe to wait patiently for the next pogrom or anti-Semitic scape-goating demigod. Let's be honest; if there was still a sizable Jewish community in Europe today, if the Holocaust never occurred, then think how quickly "The Jews" would likely be singled out as the cause of the current Euro debt crisis.

So, if one can be intellectually honest, in my opinion, and admit that even today, Jews are not exactly welcomed in many lands, a Zionist State might appear archaic today; however, the extenuating circumstances might just be that some white Gentiles have an intractable anathema towards Jews that want to remain Jews and not assimilate into the Vunderbar Gentile culture. Get it?

P.S. Let's just think of Israel as "payback" for the Romans effecting the Diaspora that landed Jews in Europe in the first place. Oh, that's an idea; all the Jews in Israel get their own state in present Italy.

A quick Google search will show that they are being thus blamed by some people. I expect much of this is the "sophisticated Nazi" type of anti-semitism - that is "We know all that race stuff is hokum, but it serves to motivate the masses".

Then the logical conclusion is that those odd people that believe in one invisible God might need their own land to live in peace, since for some reason some of the converted pagans still consider Hebrews too odd to accept them as just other folk.

The banning of goods produced in the settlements is a better step than the symbolic acts of protests like the Gaza Flotillas, certainly, because it affects Israel economically. What are needed are boycott campaigns against goods and services produced in Israel itself as well.

But in light of the fact of the US' support of the Zionist cause--which includes the consumption of around forty percent of Israel's exports--these efforts will remain largely ineffectual.

The US' backing, as it stands now, is by and large comprised of 1) Christian Zionists who believe, more or less, that Jews must be left to their own devices in the land of Israel in order for prophecy to be fulfilled and thusly ensure the second coming of Christ, 2) people who believe that the Zionists are exempt from complying with Human Rights for the Palestinian peoples because "the Holocaust," and the hazy thinking brought about by the resultant paranoia thereof, 3) racist people who, for various reasons, loath the Arabs, and 4) Jewish Zionist lobbying groups with the capital to buy politicians' votes as concern Israel.

In the instance of the first group, I don't see these Christianists changing their "end times" theology, and their increasing militancy as concerns "the Holy Land" and their willingness for war as a means to secure it against the infidel Muslims, and bring about the second coming of their lord. They are more than willing to force the issue. It's astounding how the Zionists overlook the utter bigotry and chauvinism of Christian Zionism and its view of Jews as "latent Christians" in their pursuit of the Christianist’s endorsement and support.

In the instance of the second, these peoples' ideas might change with more education as concerns the irrationality of their position. Although there has been an increase in more, sober, less propagandistic information in regard to the Israel/Palestine conflict over the past few decades, these education efforts pale compared to the Zionists' propaganda machine.

In the instance of the third, hateful people operate on an acutely irrational emotional level. I don’t think efforts to change their views are very successful.

In the instance of the fourth, political lobbying reforms must be implemented in general to prevent what is essentially the legal bribing of politicians in the US.

I don't think that's true of everyone, I think a lot of people just choose to look the other way.

The story of Israel is incredibly romantic, a dispossessed people returning home after thousands of years in exile, and when you include the horrors of the holocaust, you have a country that's also a romatic ideal.

A lot of people don't want to face facts, that the state of Israel was born in blood and terror, a romantic ideal has turned into a nightmare for the indiginous poulation.

It's just easier to look the other way.

I agree with both infrablue and izzy; nothing will change concerning US support of Israel. Just shows to those of us who understand discrimination that even the US government has blind eyes. Israel is not a democracy.

Are the Christian Zionists really a large group of people in the US?

I definitely "get" your number 2..... I think that's where I was until I read more about the issue and the history. we all have the 3's.

I am intrigued as to the strength of the lobby you refer to....how do they buy votes?

I do wonder if strategic reasons do not have more to do with it for the US though.....ie a staging post for US military intervention in the middle east plus a country which is ready to bomb any power there the US doesn't like, especially if they get nuclear capacity.

My governments seem to be unreasonably pro-Israel come what may as well, and I haven't really worked out why. Our support isn't game-altering of course, as the US's is.

I really think 2 has a lot to do with it.


Nonetheless I am somewhat heartened by the Israeli government reaction to the south African move. They must think it has some potential to put pressure on their policies.

Imam