I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

@joefromchicago,

I guess that's the point. The god I might believe in has never been articulated. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but the language to articulate it doesn't exist. I think the mystics who experience something and then try to relate it via poetry, prose, parables, proverbs, etc... may actually be on to something, but what we lack as a species is the language to express that experience. I do not believe gods (or any that have been articulated to date, at least) exist.... but I do not believe there are no gods.

3 Replies

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

This makes me sad. Frank is usually so prompt in responding to my posts, but it has been four hours now and no reply! Was it something I said, Frank?

Sorry, Joe. Golf called. Just finished. Response will be composed immediately.

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@joefromchicago,

Quote:

Quote:
I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

"What is a god?"

Quote:
What difference does it make, Joe?

All the difference in the universe, bubbie, if, as you say, you "do not believe there are no gods." , how are you going to know if you are in the presence of what you have thus far refused to define?

You "do not believe there are no gods."
Great.
What is a god?

I still do not understand what difference it makes, Joe.

I have acknowledged I may be wrong about both sides of the issue…that there may be gods despite the fact that I do not have a belief that any exist…and that there may be no gods despite the fact that I do not have a belief there are none.

Let’s take the first part of my title:

I do not believe gods exist...

I then made sure to clarify:

“I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST” (the first part of my title) merely tells you part of what I do NOT “believe” about the existence of gods. Essentially it is saying: I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist. It says absolutely nothing about what I do “believe”…or even if I “believe” anything about gods at all.

I went further:

I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist.

http://able2know.org/topic/190405-1#post-4979958

In other posts I have indicated that I apply that to ANY gods that you might conceive of…or any that anyone can conceive of.

So why is the answer to the question you are asking important to any considerations you have about the first part of my title?

ASIDE: I get, Joe, that you do not hold me in particularly high regard…that you have reservations about my intelligence and perhaps even my sanity.... and that you consider me not particularly adept at explaining myself or presenting my arguments. You may, in fact, have contempt for me for some reason.

I understand that…and it is your right to do so.

If you could get past some of that and offer serious considerations and comments on the issue we are discussing, I would appreciate it. I am still interested in your take on this issue.

Joe...what problems do you have with the “I do not believe gods exist” part of my title here?

1 Reply

@JPB,

Thank you, JPB.

I think you have articulated that very clearly...and despite Joe's contention that I am not doing so, I think I have articulated the position clearly also.

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@Thomas,

Quote:

"Remember Alice? This is a song about Alice." (Arlo Guthrie)

Is there anyone here who thinks it is illogical or inconsistent?

http://able2know.org/topic/190405-1#post-4979593

There is a truth in the title of this thread that is subtle…but very important to my philosophical position regarding whether gods exist or not.

But the fact that it is important to MY philosophical position is not as important as the fact that it is the essence of weak atheism.

The use of the word “believe” can lead to disorientation if you are not careful…and I want to point that out.

http://able2know.org/topic/190405-1#post-4979957

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@JPB,

JPB wrote:

I guess that's the point. The god I might believe in has never been articulated. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but the language to articulate it doesn't exist. I think the mystics who experience something and then try to relate it via poetry, prose, parables, proverbs, etc... may actually be on to something, but what we lack as a species is the language to express that experience. I do not believe gods (or any that have been articulated to date, at least) exist.... but I do not believe there are no gods.

What's funny is that this whole thread came about when I stated in the "What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?" thread that:

[quote=""failures art]
Nothing is "unexplainable," but certainly our observational and linguistic ability to communicate is a limitation on what can be currently explained.[/quote]

Frank couldn't stand it.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

Quote:
What's funny is that this whole thread came about when I stated in the "What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?" thread that:

[quote=""failures art]
Nothing is "unexplainable," but certainly our observational and linguistic ability to communicate is a limitation on what can be currently explained.

Frank couldn't stand it.

I asked some questions about how you knew that "nothing is unexplainable."

I never suggested in any way that "I couldn't stand it."

If it makes you happy to suppose you were the inspiration for this thread...go for it. But there are people here who would tell you that I have discussed these issues many, many times before I read your "nothing is unexplainable" line...and I dare say I will discuss them many times in the future.

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@Frank Apisa,

What I find funny (I said nothing of it "mak[ing] me happy") is seeing you object to statements regarding limitations on language, but then doing your "thank you" routine when someone else makes the same observation.

A
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@failures art,

Quote:

What I find funny (I said nothing of it "mak[ing] me happy") is seeing you object to statements regarding limitations on language, but then doing your "thank you" routine when someone else makes the same observation.

What I find funny, Art, is seeing you pretend that I have ever objected to statements regarding limitations on language.

What in hell do you think the main objective of this thread is...if not the limitations of language...particularly the difficulties "the limitations of language" present for the use of the words "believe" and "belief?"

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@Frank Apisa,

Egad, you missed the point, Frank.

The limitations on our language that hinder our capability are that we lack words or phrases to articulate specific ideas. The idea that there's a problem with language because you can't take the word "believe" and force it to mean "guess" is your problem.

A
R
T

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What is a god?

<still no answer>
In an eternal universe, what would be the place and purpose of gods?

By what evidence would we know whether they were in place and fulfilling their purpose?

How would we tell if it was one deity or a hundred or none at all, or perhaps the consciousness of the eternal universe itself?

Joe(I am invisible on this thread.)Nation

1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

Egad, you missed the point, Frank.

The limitations on our language that hinder our capability are that we lack words or phrases to articulate specific ideas. The idea that there's a problem with language because you can't take the word "believe" and force it to mean "guess" is your problem.

Art, I am not missing the point of your posts. I suspect you may be.

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@Joe Nation,

Joe Nation wrote:

What is a god?

<still no answer>

That which has been defined by anyone to mean what it means to them. None of those definitions are particularly meaningful to me.

Quote:

In an eternal universe, what would be the place and purpose of gods?

hell if I know. I chalk it up to divine mystery that may or may not ever get resolved.

Quote:

By what evidence would we know whether they were in place and fulfilling their purpose?

I think if the divine exists it must be experienced. Perhaps it comes from deep meditation or starving oneself in the woods for 40 days and 40 nights (or one too many tabs of acid....). I'm not that interested to try to find out.

Quote:

How would we tell if it was one deity or a hundred or none at all, or perhaps the consciousness of the eternal universe itself?

That would be my guess, but again.... I'm very happy not paying too much attention to it. It certainly doesn't qualify as a "belief".

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I still do not understand what difference it makes, Joe.

What is a god?

<still no answer>
In an eternal universe, what would be the place and purpose of gods?

By what evidence would we know whether they were in place and fulfilling their purpose?

How would we tell if it was one deity or a hundred or none at all, or perhaps the consciousness of the eternal universe itself?

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

Re: Frank Apisa (Post 4993418)
Frank Apisa wrote:
I still do not understand what difference it makes, Joe.

What is a god?

<still no answer>
In an eternal universe, what would be the place and purpose of gods?

By what evidence would we know whether they were in place and fulfilling their purpose?

How would we tell if it was one deity or a hundred or none at all, or perhaps the consciousness of the eternal universe itself?

But what difference would it make, Joe?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

We've already gone over this, Frank: you can't expect me to answer your questions if you don't extend to me the same courtesy. We'll take this in sequence: I have questions already outstanding. You answer those, then I'll answer yours.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

Quote:

We've already gone over this, Frank: you can't expect me to answer your questions if you don't extend to me the same courtesy. We'll take this in sequence: I have questions already outstanding. You answer those, then I'll answer yours.

Joe, I want very much to have your input on the questions asked in the OP.

I do not believe gods exist...there are absolutely no gods that I believe exist. Define them as you will...I do not have a belief that the god exists. I am not saying they do not exist...I acknowledge many gods may exist or a single god may exist...but no matter what...and no matter how defined, I DO NOT HAVE A BELIEF that any gods exist.

I also do not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Now, that should cover everything.

I do not care how GODS are defined (unless you do a unicorn job on the definition)...I DO NOT have a belief that they exist. Use any definition of GOD or gods that you find anywhere...and I will tell you that I do not have a belief that the god exists.

So...what problem do you have with the first part of my title?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I do not care how GODS are defined (unless you do a unicorn job on the definition)...I DO NOT have a belief that they exist. Use any definition of GOD or gods that you find anywhere...and I will tell you that I do not have a belief that the god exists.

Oh come on Frank, I thought that you said you have the same respect about unicorns. Are you making a claim that unicorn gods can not exist ?

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

There might be unicorns on every habitable planet circling the nearest 200 stars to Sol EXCEPT for Earth. Or, unicorns may be invisible and otherwise not able to be sensed.

That would be totally awesome if it were true.

Do you also think that the same logic should be applied to Santa Claus? Can you imagine Santa Clause on every habitable planet circling the nearest 200 stars to Sol EXCEPT for Earth. Or, Santa Claus may be invisible and otherwise not able to be sensed.

1 Reply

@reasoning logic,

They have to do something with all the unsold DVDs.

1 Reply

I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

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