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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 01:37 pm
@Mrknowspeople,
Mrknowspeople wrote:

God has to exist because we believe He does and because He exists, His purpose was to make us thus our purpose is to exist for Him.


Okay...so Zeus exists.

Up to you how you handle that.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 01:40 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

So you are claiming that it is possible to make an assertion one way or the other but not exist.


I am claiming anything that has not conclusively been established as impossible...IS POSSIBLE.

If you are seeing implications of that...put it out there and we can discuss it.

Quote:

Umm …ok….I can accept that a biological computer brain could do that which is why I gave the 4 logic statements.


I do not know what you mean by "I gave the 4 logic statements."

I've had you on IGNORE because of some previous incident. If you have 4 logic statements to make which conclusively establishes that it is impossible for some particular to be...put them out here again. We can discuss them.
Jasper10
 
  -1  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 02:07 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I would suggest that the brain is a biological computer.

Computers do what computers do.They process information.

We clearly need this computer to assist us in every day life.

I would suggest that if the question is asked of this computer brain organ …do I exist or not?…. because it doesn’t know because it is just a computer organ all it can do is offer up 4 logic possibility statements:

I don’t exist….I don’t exist
I don’t exist….I do exist
I do exist…I don’t exist
I exist…..I exist

So whether the computer claims it exists or not, at the end of the day it is just an organ.

I would suggest that there is more to our make up than just this computer processing organ.

Can you accept this view as a possibility?
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 02:22 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:


I would suggest that the brain is a biological computer.

Computers do what computers do.They process information.

We clearly need this computer to assist us in every day life.

I would suggest that if the question is asked of this computer brain organ …do I exist or not?…. because it doesn’t know because it is just a computer organ all it can do is offer up 4 logic possibility statements:

I don’t exist….I don’t exist
I don’t exist….I do exist
I do exist…I don’t exist
I exist…..I exist

So whether the computer claims it exists or not, at the end of the day it is just an organ.

I would suggest that there is more to our make up than just this computer processing organ.

Can you accept this view as a possibility?


As a possibility...of course.

Although your 4 logic possibility statements seem unclear. Assuming you can make the 4 logic possibility statements a bit clearer...I would ask you to do so.

I also would ask you to deal with that outstanding piece of business.
Jasper10
 
  -1  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 02:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I would suggest that the 4 off dualistic logic possibility statements derive from an inward only meditative practice.In other words one goes inward and carries out dualistic reasoning.

I would suggest that the biological computer brain ultimately computes these 4 off possibility statements.

I would suggest that this is why Buddhism for example concludes that SELF does not exist.The dualistic reasoning appearing to cancel out.

I would suggest that there is more to it than just drawing the line there because this type of inward only concluding meditation is an “out of the moment” consciousness experience.

I would suggest that there is an “in the moment” consciousness experience as well and I maintain that inward only dualistic reasoning does not take this into account.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 05:34 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:


I would suggest that the 4 off dualistic logic possibility statements derive from an inward only meditative practice.In other words one goes inward and carries out dualistic reasoning.

I would suggest that the biological computer brain ultimately computes these 4 off possibility statements.

I would suggest that this is why Buddhism for example concludes that SELF does not exist.The dualistic reasoning appearing to cancel out.

I would suggest that there is more to it than just drawing the line there because this type of inward only concluding meditation is an “out of the moment” consciousness experience.

I would suggest that there is an “in the moment” consciousness experience as well and I maintain that inward only dualistic reasoning does not take this into account.




Your computer seems to have missed the most important logical possibility...the one that goes, “I do not know if I exist…and I am not even sure of what 'I' or 'exist' truly mean. "

We...you and I...if we exist...and if "exist, I, me, we, you" are assigned what might be termed "a conventional definition"...are just part of the dominant species on a non-descript pebble of a planet circling a non-descript star in a non-descript galaxy with (an estimated) over 300 billion such stars in a known universe of trillions of such galaxies.” The chances of us figuring out the truth of things such as existence, infinity, eternity, and such is almost certainly not in our favor.

But you have a reason for asking what you are asking...and I am still interested in what it is.

There are no Perry Mason traps that can be laid for those of us who have done this kind of thing for decades now. So...come out with it. Tell me where your reasoning leads...and why it is important whether I exist or not...regardless of whether I know or guess if I do.

Allow me help you along. For the purposes of this exercise (and for the purposes of this exercise only) I will stipulate that...

...I do accept that if I have the capability to guess whether I exist or not, that means that I exist, otherwise I wouldn’t have the capability to guess?

That was one of your "do you accept" offerings earlier.

So...where would that take us?

Jasper10
 
  0  
Sat 5 Nov, 2022 11:27 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I did say that if I ask this biological computer brain …..do I exist or not? then it doesn’t know and can only provide the 4 logic possibility statements which I would suggest is the same thing as saying I do not know whether I exist or not.It is just in a 4 statement combined output.

I accept also that the term “exist” could have different interpretations.

It might be said that a biological computer brain that provides an output to a question does exist in terms of one definition but also doesn’t exist in terms of another definition.

I would suggest that this biological computer brain is a phenomenal computer which is capable of feeding information outputs in the form of what I would call “inward” thoughts.Stored music for example.

I would say that it is important for me to know whether I exist or not because I have asked the question.





Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 6 Nov, 2022 05:45 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:


I did say that if I ask this biological computer brain …..do I exist or not? then it doesn’t know and can only provide the 4 logic possibility statements which I would suggest is the same thing as saying I do not know whether I exist or not.It is just in a 4 statement combined output.

I accept also that the term “exist” could have different interpretations.

It might be said that a biological computer brain that provides an output to a question does exist in terms of one definition but also doesn’t exist in terms of another definition.

I would suggest that this biological computer brain is a phenomenal computer which is capable of feeding information outputs in the form of what I would call “inward” thoughts.Stored music for example.

I would say that it is important for me to know whether I exist or not because I have asked the question.


Jasper, I appreciate the conversation, but we have reached an impasse here. I just do not understand where you are going with your argument.

Let's just let this thread die another peaceful death.

Jasper10
 
  0  
Sun 6 Nov, 2022 06:54 am
@Frank Apisa,
That’s ok Frank.Maybe dip in and out when you see fit.

I don’t understand your point of view either.It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I see your point as the true impasse.

It is a balance but it doesn’t explain the full human experience adequately.

At least we kind of agree that you exist now in some form or other.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 6 Nov, 2022 07:06 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

That’s ok Frank.Maybe dip in and out when you see fit.

I don’t understand your point of view either.It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

I see your point as the true impasse.

It is a balance but it doesn’t explain the full human experience adequately.


Sorry I was not able to "explain the full human experience adequately" Jasper.
Terrible failing on my part.

Quote:
At least we kind of agree that you exist now in some form or other.


Here is what I wrote. Read it over again.

Allow me help you along. For the purposes of this exercise (and for the purposes of this exercise only) I will stipulate that...

We do not agree on that segment at all.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Sun 6 Nov, 2022 07:39 am
@Frank Apisa,
Ok Frank calm down…Misunderstanding that’s all.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sun 6 Nov, 2022 08:01 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

Ok Frank calm down…Misunderstanding that’s all.


No problem. And I am calm as a clam.
Wink
Jasper10
 
  0  
Sun 6 Nov, 2022 08:49 am
@Frank Apisa,
All good then..
Jasper10
 
  0  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 12:33 am
@Jasper10,
My point about the 4 logic statement is that there is an automated part of our make up that feeds us information.How can it do that other than by a thought type?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 04:24 am
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

My point about the 4 logic statement is that there is an automated part of our make up that feeds us information.How can it do that other than by a thought type?


Your "point" that "the 4 logic statement" is an automated part of our make up that feeds us information" is a very interesting guess, Jasper.

I wonder if it is correct or not.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  1  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 04:28 am
@Jasper10,
Well done Jasper, someone has called part of your post interesting.

Strange Days indeed.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 05:27 am
@izzythepush,
Well I always had hope that someone would be interested Izzy.That’s all any of us have.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 01:41 pm
@Jasper10,
I think the title for this discussion sums up the logic of a biological computer.In other words the sort of conclusion the automated part of our nature would come up with.

No disrespect to you Frank.

We all have an automated part to our nature I would suggest.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 02:23 pm
@Jasper10,
Jasper10 wrote:

I think the title for this discussion sums up the logic of a biological computer.In other words the sort of conclusion the automated part of our nature would come up with.


I see it as a recitation of the truth from my perspective. I see it as a recitation of the truth from most agnostics' perspectives. I see it as a recitation of the truth from many weak atheists' perspective.

That is all it is...the truth.

You have this notion of a "biological computer" ingrained...and will probably incorporate it into most of your discussions. You share that with Werner Erhard who also saw the human psyche working in an automatonic way.

Quote:

No disrespect to you Frank.


None taken at all.

Quote:
We all have an automated part to our nature I would suggest.


That is an interesting guess. I wonder if it is correct.
Jasper10
 
  0  
Mon 7 Nov, 2022 04:02 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Well a stand alone biological computer organ must operate in a specific way.

It must process information in a structured way.There must be a form of software logic that is used to process data received.

Also something must create the software logic to enable the data to be processed.

Would you agree to this as a possibility?
 

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