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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

Forums: Religion, Word Salad, Logic, Apisa Match, Not Atheism
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rosborne979
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:08 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I “do not have confidence in the truth” that gods exist…and I “do not have confidence in the truth" that gods do not exist.

That makes sense.

But you could have just said, "I don't know if gods exist or not", and most people would have understood what you meant.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:27 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
But you could have just said, "I don't know if gods exist or not"

That would be to simple! It would not deliver that same philosophical punch that Frank is trying to deliver and nobody would buy into the unicorn deal as easy. Can you imagine frank trying to sell his unicorn speech to his buddies at the golf course using language like that?
"I don't know if unicorns exist or not"
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:35 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
OK I will admit it. There could be a possibility of unicorns existing! "in a world that is governed by Franks imagination.


You ought really to see a professional to deal with that obsession you have with unicorns existing.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:37 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
I think that if you say something which a majority of people interpret differently from how you mean it, then you have failed to use language properly to express your idea(s).


I think if I explain how I am using certain words that are often used ambiguously, any intelligent individual should be able to understand what I am saying.

I will acknowledge that it is sometimes difficult to determine if one is dealing with an "intelligent individual" or not.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:38 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
That makes sense.

But you could have just said, "I don't know if gods exist or not", and most people would have understood what you meant.


Go back and read the entire conversation again and it should become apparent why I had to say what I said.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:39 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
That would be to simple! It would not deliver that same philosophical punch that Frank is trying to deliver and nobody would buy into the unicorn deal as easy. Can you imagine frank trying to sell his unicorn speech to his buddies at the golf course using language like that?
"I don't know if unicorns exist or not"


Unicorns again!

Oh, my.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 09:42 am
@Frank Apisa,
I only talk about them with people who believe they could possibly exist. You do not see me talking about them with anyone else, "only you in your threads Frank. If I could find someone else who believes in them, I may talk to them as well because it is not very often that I get the privilege of talking to people who have such creative imaginations.
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 10:22 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Let’s use that in my title instead of “believe.”

I “do not have confidence in the truth” that gods exist…and I “do not have confidence in the truth" that gods do not exist.

I simply do not have confidence in either of those “truths”…which I see less as truths than as assertions.

"I don't have confidence in the truth" is not the same thing as "I don't believe." The former means you are not sure about something's truth, whereas the latter means you are sure of its untruth.

I think what you want to say is that you don't know if there are any gods or not. Why you don't just say that instead of these increasingly circumlocutory statements is quite beyond me.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 10:50 am
It's an exercise in self deception anyway. Frank's in a house of mirrors and can't recognize an exit.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 10:50 am
@reasoning logic,
RL...try to grasp the difference between "cannot logically rule out"...and what you refer to as "believing in" things.

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 10:54 am
@joefromchicago,
Joe…

…earlier you wrote: "Believe" means to have confidence in the truth of something, “

So I changed what I said for what you say it means.

I absolutely do not know if there are gods or not. I thought I had mentioned that before…several times.

We are dealing with your earlier post correcting my wording.

Read you earlier post…and my reply to it.
fresco
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:14 am
@Frank Apisa,
What you persistently fail to understand is that words like "believe" do not have meaning independent of their usage contexts. Thus "belief in God" is an entirely different ball game to "belief in Santa Claus" or "belief that the sun will rise tomorrow". And it can be argued that what can be said for "belief" can also be said for "truth" and "existence". So your crusade of recent years regarding agnosticism as being "logically sustainable" is completely vacuous because the "truth values" in logical analysis are separate from that analysis and are themselves contextually assigned.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:19 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
RL...try to grasp the difference between "cannot logically rule out"


OK so you "cannot logically rule out" the existence of unicorns. You may think there is a huge difference between the two and I am cool with that, I am just happy to be able to talk to someone who is as creative as you are.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:28 am
@fresco,
Quote:
What you persistently fail to understand is that words like "believe" do not have meaning independent of their usage contexts. Thus "belief in God" is an entirely different ball game to "belief in Santa Claus" or "belief that the sun will rise tomorrow". And it can be argued that what can be said for "belief" can also be said for "truth" and "existence". So your crusade of recent years regarding agnosticism as being "logically sustainable" is completely vacuous because the "truth values" in logical analysis are separate from that analysis and are themselves contextually assigned.


Oh yeah?
fresco
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:29 am
@Frank Apisa,
Yeah !
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:29 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
OK so you "cannot logically rule out" the existence of unicorns. You may think there is a huge difference between the two and I am cool with that, I am just happy to be able to talk to someone who is as creative as you are.


And I want you to know that I am happy to be able to talk to someone like you who is...whatever you are.

I like you just the way you are.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:30 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Yeah !


Now that was funny. I laughed out loud. It is a side of you we see much too seldom.
0 Replies
 
djjd62
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:33 am
@reasoning logic,
how do you know they don't exist, and why do you care if they do or don't

myself, i think the world could use a few unicorns and elves
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:34 am
Anyway...I honestly do not believe gods exist. They may...but I am not willing on the evidence available to say that "I believe" they do.

And I also honestly do not believe there are no gods. There may be none...but I am not willing on the evidence available to say that "I believe" they do not.

I see no contradiction there...and I am baffled by the way some people have reacted to this thread.

By the way, most weak atheists I know would be comfortable saying:

I honestly do not believe gods exist.

And most weak atheists would be comfortable saying:

I am not saying that I believe there are no gods.
djjd62
 
  3  
Sat 12 May, 2012 11:37 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
Joe…
…earlier you wrote: "Believe" means to have confidence in the truth of something,"


life is so much easier if you use the Humpty Dumpty approach to words and their meaning

“I don’t know what you mean by ‘glory,’ ” Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. “Of course you don’t—till I tell you. I meant ‘there’s a nice knock-down argument for you!’ ”
“But ‘glory’ doesn’t mean ‘a nice knock-down argument’,” Alice objected.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master, that’s all.”
Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. “They’ve a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they’re the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That’s what I say!”
0 Replies
 
 

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