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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

Forums: Religion, Word Salad, Logic, Apisa Match, Not Atheism
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reasoning logic
 
  1  
Fri 25 May, 2012 04:25 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
They have to do something with all the unsold DVDs.


Do you think that Frank is aiding or promoting the sell of those unsold DVDs?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Fri 25 May, 2012 04:54 pm
@reasoning logic,
I think you're the Tim Allen fan.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Fri 25 May, 2012 04:57 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

I'm really sad that I finally decided to read this thread. What makes me ever sadder is that I understand Frank's point. I do not believe gods exist...but I do not believe there are no gods either.

I think I need to call my doctor.


In terms of logic, Chai, in the very first response to this thread, explained quite concisely, the statement's lack thereof.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Fri 25 May, 2012 05:51 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
In terms of logic, Chai, in the very first response to this thread, explained quite concisely, the statement's lack thereof.


Chai was wrong.

It is entirely possible and logical to...

...not have a belief that gods exist...

...and not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Many people are in that position.

I do not understand why people like you are still suggesting there is something illogical or inconsistent in being of that mind.
Joe Nation
 
  4  
Tue 29 May, 2012 10:28 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
It is entirely possible and logical to...
...not have a belief that gods exist...
...and not have a belief that gods do not exist.
Many people are in that position.


So, still no answer to the question "What is a god?"
Funny that we cannot define the subject of the discussion.
It can't be "anyhow.... ." I define the word, it has to be your definition, but, more to the point:
Yes, a person can not have a belief that gods exist.
and
Yes, a person can not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Just not the same person, Frank.

Look at your original statement:
I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

Quote:
"I do not believe gods exist."

means no gods, no way, no how. Right?
Quote:
"But, I do not believe there are no gods."

means, in English, that despite the no gods, no way, no how,
there is a belief that there are somethings out (undefined) which are gods.

You have two mutually contradictory non-beliefs, two beliefs or non-beliefs which can be held by lots of people, as you said, but not one single individual.

Joe(then they would be as crazy as me)Nation
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:24 pm
@Joe Nation,
Joe Nation,

You wrote:

Quote:
Look at your original statement:
I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.


Quote:
"I do not believe gods exist."

means no gods, no way, no how. Right?


YES…I DO NOT HAVE A BELIEF THAT THERE ARE GODS THAT EXIST.

If you were to look at my list of beliefs…you would not find an item: There are gods.

I am NOT saying I believe there are no gods…I am simply telling you that I DO NOT have a belief that there are gods.

You are determined to use the expression “I do not believe gods exist” to mean… “I believe there are no gods.” Idiomatic usage does allow for that...but I have gone way out of my way to let you, and everyone else here, know that is not the way I am using the words.

You also, Joe Nation, are determined to disregard the explanation I gave of that concept back on page 1 of this thread.

http://able2know.org/topic/190405-1#post-4979958


Quote:
The use of the word “believe” can lead to disorientation if you are not careful…and I want to point that out.
(This is very important, Joe Nation, because I am using the words the way I am to make a point about how the word can become easily distorted.)

“I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST” (the first part of my title) merely tells you part of what I do NOT “believe” about the existence of gods. Essentially it is saying: I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist. It says absolutely nothing about what I do “believe”…or even if I “believe” anything about gods at all.

I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist.

Quote:
Quote:
"But, I do not believe there are no gods."

means, in English, that despite the no gods, no way, no how,
there is a belief that there are somethings out (undefined) which are gods.

You have two mutually contradictory non-beliefs, two beliefs or non-beliefs which can be held by lots of people, as you said, but not one single individual.


There is absolutely nothing contradictory about saying that one does not have a belief that gods exist…and also does not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Most agnostics express that.

I DO NOT HAVE a belief in either direction.

You also, Joe Nation, are determined to disregard the explanation I gave of that concept on page 1 of this thread.

http://able2know.org/topic/190405-1#post-4979958




“BUT I DO NOT BELIEVE THERE ARE NO GODS” (the second part) also tells you part of what I do NOT “believe” about the existence of gods. Essentially it is saying: I am not willing to express a “belief that gods do not exist.” It also says absolutely nothing about what I do “believe”…or even if I “believe” anything about gods at all.


I am not willing to express a “belief that gods do not exist.”

The two clauses do not contradict one another in any way; they are not mutually exclusive.



I have no idea of why you are determined to disregard that explanation…and the logic of what I am writing here, but it is your right to do so. Continue to be illogical if you chose.

Your reasons for asking me what a gods is...is an extension of this illogical interpretation you are making. Stop making the illogical interpretation...and this supposed need to have me define a god will cease to exist.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
If you were to look at my list of beliefs…you would not find an item: There are gods.


You have a list?
Rickoshay75
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:26 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
In terms of logic, Chai, in the very first response to this thread, explained quite concisely, the statement's lack thereof.


Chai was wrong.

It is entirely possible and logical to...

...not have a belief that gods exist...

...and not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Many people are in that position.

I do not understand why people like you are still suggesting there is something illogical or inconsistent in being of that mind.


What is -- is what counts, not rationalizations of what is.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:27 pm
@izzythepush,
Quote:
You have a list?


I guess so.

Here it is:
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:34 pm
@Rickoshay75,
Quote:
What is -- is what counts, not rationalizations of what is.


Not sure of your point, Rick, but

...I do not have a belief that gods exist...

...I do not have a belief that gods do not exist.

There is no contradiction in that.

That is all I have said...that I do not have a belief that gods exist...and I do not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Not sure why we have gone through 26 pages with people telling me there is something wrong, illogical or inconsistent with that.

I suspect some people are doing it just to bust my chops...to see if they can get my goat.

They cannot.

Some people have come into the thread to say they understand completely what I am saying. I appreciate that more than you can imaging. For the people who cannot get what I am saying...or who have to pretend they do not get it so they can claim I am doing a poor job of explaining it...hey, what can I say. If that makes them feel good...wonderful.
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You don't do belief is that correct?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:35 pm
@igm,
Quote:
You don't do belief is that correct?


Must be a slow day!

You are correct, igm...I do not do beliefs.
igm
 
  2  
Tue 29 May, 2012 12:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
You don't do belief is that correct?


Must be a slow day!

You are correct, igm...I do not do beliefs.


In the absence of your belief, in the existence, or non-existence, of gods, what verb would you use to describe your stance on gods?
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 29 May, 2012 01:03 pm
@igm,
Quote:
In the absence of your belief, in the existence, or non-existence, of gods, what verb would you use to describe your stance on gods?


I do not like inquisitions of any sort...and I do not especially enjoy a line of questioning that seem almost prosecutorial in tenor, igm. I will indulge you, for the moment, however, but if there is somewhere you are going with this line of questioning, I suggest you get to it.

The wording of your question was careless...or was intentionally off target.

I am rewording it...and responding to my rewording:

The rewording of the question: Since you say that you are unwilling to express a belief that gods exist...and are unwilling to express a belief that gods do not exist, what verb would you use to describe your stance of gods?

In response:

Rather than try to fit my considerations about gods into a single verb, igm, I would simply offer:

I do not know if gods exist...I do not know if gods do not exist...I do not see enough unabamiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction. (I might add: Even if I did come to the point where I would feel comfortable making a guess...I would not call it a belief, I would call it exactly what it would be--A GUESS.)
Joe Nation
 
  4  
Tue 29 May, 2012 01:21 pm
Quote:
I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist.
I am not willing to express a “belief that gods do not exist.”
The two clauses do not contradict one another in any way; they are not mutually exclusive.


Then, my question is: Who cares? So what?

Alert the media:
Man Declares He Refuses to Offer an Opinion.
Absolutely Has No Dog In Any Fight (especially DOG spelled backwards)
Plans to Open a Home for the Philosophically High-Centered

Let me try that:
Sports:
I won't say whether I think the Red Sox have a chance this year.
Love:
I have no opinion vis-a-vis the blond at the end of the bar.
Life Stories
Nope. Mum's the word, boyo. My lips are zipped

I'm going to phone you before you die of boredom.

Joe(or kill us using it.)Nation Razz








igm
 
  2  
Tue 29 May, 2012 01:39 pm
@Frank Apisa,
igm wrote:

You don't do belief is that correct?

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are correct, igm...I do not do beliefs.

igm wrote:

In the absence of your belief, in the existence, or non-existence, of gods, what verb would you use to describe your stance on gods?

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not like inquisitions of any sort...and I do not especially enjoy a line of questioning that seem almost prosecutorial in tenor, igm.

Frank... your perception of my questions seems incorrect. I was simply asking about your absence of belief and one question naturally follows from your reply. Could you explain what you mean?
Frank Apisa wrote:

The wording of your question was careless...or was intentionally off target.

My wording is neither careless nor off target... could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am rewording it...and responding to my rewording:

You don't think this is overly controlling? What are you thinking?
Frank Apisa wrote:

Rather than try to fit my considerations about gods into a single verb, igm, I would simply offer:

It may come as a shock but verbs can have more than one word:
http://www.dailygrammar.com/emails/Lesson%2004.htm
"Sometimes a verb can be more than one word."
Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not know if gods exist...I do not know if gods do not exist...I do not see enough unabamiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction. (I might add: Even if I did come to the point where I would feel comfortable making a guess...I would not call it a belief, I would call it exactly what it would be--A GUESS.)


Frank... old chap.. how are you? Anyway back to the subject in hand. You have exchanged without too much trouble the verb 'believe' with the verb 'know' so it was possible. Now you know what coming next:

If you don't do knowing and you don't do belief in gods what verb would you use to describe your stance on gods?

p.s. hope the golf is going well!
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 01:40 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:
In terms of logic, Chai, in the very first response to this thread, explained quite concisely, the statement's lack thereof.


Chai was wrong.

It is entirely possible and logical to...

...not have a belief that gods exist...

...and not have a belief that gods do not exist.

Many people are in that position.

I do not understand why people like you are still suggesting there is something illogical or inconsistent in being of that mind.




What is illogical is the statement "I do not believe gods exist...but I do not believe there are no gods." It's contradictory by its very words, as Chai so adroitly pointed out.

You're getting yourself in a muddle because you are conflating belief and its attendant idea theism with knowledge and its attendant idea agnosticism. You are of the mind that you don't know if gods exist. Fair enough. What's tripping you up is your attempt to tie that in with belief and the inept statement of your thread. It would be simpler and non-contradictory if you were to merely say, "I don't know if gods exist, therefore, I have no beliefs in regard to the existence of gods," or simpler still, "I have no beliefs in regard to the existence of gods."
Frank Apisa
 
  0  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:18 pm
@igm,
igm...if you have a point, get to it.

If you cannot do it without more questions...don't bother with it.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:23 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
What is illogical is the statement "I do not believe gods exist...but I do not believe there are no gods." It's contradictory by its very words, as Chai so adroitly pointed out.


No, Blue, it is not.

I do not have a belief that gods exist.

I also do not have a belief that gods do not exist.

There is no contradiction involved.

Why are you and the others persisting in pretending there is a contradiction?

Where is the contradiction?
0 Replies
 
igm
 
  1  
Tue 29 May, 2012 02:34 pm
@Frank Apisa,
igm wrote:

igm wrote:

You don't do belief is that correct?

Frank Apisa wrote:

You are correct, igm...I do not do beliefs.

igm wrote:

In the absence of your belief, in the existence, or non-existence, of gods, what verb would you use to describe your stance on gods?

Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not like inquisitions of any sort...and I do not especially enjoy a line of questioning that seem almost prosecutorial in tenor, igm.

Frank... your perception of my questions seems incorrect. I was simply asking about your absence of belief and one question naturally follows from your reply. Could you explain what you mean?
Frank Apisa wrote:

The wording of your question was careless...or was intentionally off target.

My wording is neither careless nor off target... could you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?
Frank Apisa wrote:

I am rewording it...and responding to my rewording:

You don't think this is overly controlling? What are you thinking?
Frank Apisa wrote:

Rather than try to fit my considerations about gods into a single verb, igm, I would simply offer:

It may come as a shock but verbs can have more than one word:
http://www.dailygrammar.com/emails/Lesson%2004.htm
"Sometimes a verb can be more than one word."
Frank Apisa wrote:

I do not know if gods exist...I do not know if gods do not exist...I do not see enough unabamiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction. (I might add: Even if I did come to the point where I would feel comfortable making a guess...I would not call it a belief, I would call it exactly what it would be--A GUESS.)


Frank... old chap.. how are you? Anyway back to the subject in hand. You have exchanged without too much trouble the verb 'believe' with the verb 'know' so it was possible. Now you know what coming next:

If you don't do knowing and you don't do belief in gods what verb would you use to describe your stance on gods?

p.s. hope the golf is going well!

Frank Apisa wrote:

igm...if you have a point, get to it.

If you cannot do it without more questions...don't bother with it.


Conclusion: Frank as you offer no alternatives to 'know' and 'believe' you lack any view on god/gods. You are therefore 'without god' and that makes you a 'closet' atheist unless you can define what stance you have regarding god/s.

So if you have an absence of a view on god/s then that is synonymous with atheists who are 'without god/s'; they simply live without the concept of gods just as you do, unless you can explain how someone who neither believes in gods or who doesn't know if gods exist can have any view at all on the matter.

Your philosophy is not only useless it is the philosophy of avoiding awkward questions by never answering any.

Finally, as I've said many times before... so what!!!
 

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