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I do not believe gods exist…but I do not believe there are no gods.

Forums: Religion, Word Salad, Logic, Apisa Match, Not Atheism
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fresco
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 01:11 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Language speaks the man.

Heidegger

0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 02:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Hey, wait a minute! Are you an agnostic or something?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 03:50 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
Quote:
Re: Frank Apisa (Post 4979958)
Frank Apisa wrote:
“I DO NOT BELIEVE GODS EXIST” (the first part of my title) merely tells you part of what I do NOT “believe” about the existence of gods. Essentially it is saying: I am not willing to express a belief that gods exist.

You use that word "believe." I do not think it means what you think it means.


Joe, we disagree on many things, but you are a logical thinker and I would appreciate you considering this question more carefully.

I acknowledge that I do not think of the word "believe" quite the way some other people do, but I do not think that difference changes things appreciably here.

In the context of a discussion of religion(and to some extent, philosophy), I think a "belief" is just a guess about the unknown.

So let me ask you this, Joe: If I were to reword the title using "guess" instead of "believe"...would it be inconsistent or illogical?

I do not GUESS gods exist…but I do not GUESS there are no gods.

(I am unwilling to guess gods exist...and at the same time, I am unwilling to guess gods do not exist. I simply am not willing to make a guess on this issue.)

Would it be logical for me to say that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess on the matter in either direction?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 03:51 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Wait ! ! ! It's a bait thread, he's trying to sucker you ! ! ! Go back ! ! !


Same as I said to Joe, Set. We disagree on many things, but you are a logical thinker and I would appreciate you considering this question more carefully. This really is not "baiting"...it is an interesting point for discussion.

In the context of a discussion of religion(and to some extent, philosophy), I think a "belief" is just a guess about the unknown. I think I have said that to you many times before.

So let me ask you this, Set: If I were to reword the title using "guess" instead of "believe"...would it be inconsistent or illogical?

I do not GUESS gods exist…but I do not GUESS there are no gods.

(I am unwilling to guess gods exist...and at the same time, I am unwilling to guess gods do not exist. I simply am not willing to make a guess on this issue.)

Would it be logical for me to say that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess on the matter in either direction?
Setanta
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 03:53 am
@Frank Apisa,
I'm not going to play your idiotic word game, Frank, so you can preen yourself on the excellence of your understanding. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 03:58 am
@Setanta,
Why not give it a try, Set? I really would appreciate your input on this.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 04:04 am
Frank thinks were all a bunch of . . .

http://americandigest.org/sidelines/Obamasuckers_thumb.jpg

Have big fun, Frank.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 04:13 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Frank thinks were all a bunch of . . .

SUCKERS

Have big fun, Frank.


Okay, Set, I guess you are not participating. If you change your mind, please come back in.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 04:14 am
Whoever put up the tag "low fat religion," that was brilliant . . .
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 04:16 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
Frank thinks were all a bunch of . . .

SUCKERS

Have big fun, Frank.


Okay, Set, I guess you are not participating. If you change your mind, please come back in.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 04:19 am
@snood,
http://skreened.com/render-product/c/c/f/ccfzhmgoiaqnbuciyahu/self-congratulatory-circle-jerk.american-apparel-unisex-athletic-tee.athletic-grey.w760h760.jpg
The only philosophical point worth consideration within this thread is whether you can attain "Circle jerkness" wihen there is but one participant within the circle.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 04:38 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I acknowledge that I do not think of the word "believe" quite the way some other people do, but I do not think that difference changes things appreciably here.

On the contrary, your idiosyncratic vocabulary changes everything. "Believe" means to have confidence in the truth of something, not to attempt to ascertain the truth of something. That's why your initial statement -- "I do not believe gods exist ... but I do not believe there are no gods" -- is incoherent, as others have already pointed out.

When you say "I do not believe gods exist," what you mean to say is "I have not settled on (or formed) a belief as to the existence of gods." That makes sense. Your initial statement, on the other hand, is nonsense.

Frank Apisa wrote:
In the context of a discussion of religion(and to some extent, philosophy), I think a "belief" is just a guess about the unknown.

This is just pure Humpty-Dumptyism. There's no need to use the word "belief" to mean "guess." We already have a perfectly good word for describing a guess. It's "guess."

Frank Apisa wrote:
So let me ask you this, Joe: If I were to reword the title using "guess" instead of "believe"...would it be inconsistent or illogical?

It would be slightly better.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Would it be logical for me to say that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess on the matter in either direction?

That's fine.
djjd62
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 05:00 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
Hey, wait a minute! Are you an agnostic or something?


i like to think of myself as an antagonistic
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 05:06 am
@joefromchicago,
Quote:
"Believe" means to have confidence in the truth of something,


Okay, Joe, thanks for that.

Let’s use that in my title instead of “believe.”

I “do not have confidence in the truth” that gods exist…and I “do not have confidence in the truth" that gods do not exist.

I simply do not have confidence in either of those “truths”…which I see less as truths than as assertions.

Don’t give up on me here, Joe. I am really trying to see your point…not jerking you around as Setanta seems to think I am doing.

I do not have any confidence that it is true that gods exist…

…and I do not have any confidence that it is true that gods do not exist.

There truly seems to be no incoherence there.
fresco
 
  2  
Sat 12 May, 2012 07:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
.... and some of us have absolute confidence that you haven't got a clue what what either "truth" or "existence" means ! Laughing
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 07:45 am
@fresco,
Quote:
.... and some of us have absolute confidence that you haven't got a clue what what either "truth" or "existence" means !


In a sense, Fresco, that is one of the problems I have with "truth."
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 08:03 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
In a sense, Fresco, that is one of the problems I have with "truth."


It is OK Frank, admitting your problems is one step closer to recovering.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 08:08 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
It is OK Frank, admitting your problems is one step closer to recovering.


Then you should start doing that. I hope for your speedy recovery, RL.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sat 12 May, 2012 08:52 am
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Then you should start doing that. I hope for your speedy recovery, RL.


OK I will admit it. There could be a possibility of unicorns existing! "in a world that is governed by Franks imagination. Drunk
rosborne979
 
  3  
Sat 12 May, 2012 08:56 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I think anyone who sees the title as incoherent, illogical, or inconsistent is wrong, but I would enjoy discussing it.
I think that if you say something which a majority of people interpret differently from how you mean it, then you have failed to use language properly to express your idea(s).
 

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