What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am trying to trap anyone with this question. I mean that sincerely.

I don't think you will go crazy because you've shown your motivation above. You've stolen the 'high moral ground' there Frank!

0 Replies

@igm,

Quote:

We atheist and theists and the rest of the world excluding agnostics just leave it to common sense and science coupled with history to lead our lives. I should join us before you go crazy.

Indeed. And in so doing, we are raping the world's resources, keeping over half it's population in perpetual poverty and grief, willingly participating in the enslaving of ourselves and our children, giving ever more power and wealth to a few greedy men in black suits, all the while thinking about how civilized and rational we are.

Show me the herd any day, and I'll walk the other way, because there is no doubt in my mind who the truly crazy people are. They are the ones who believe mankind has actually accomplished anything even remotely resembling the goals of our morals and ethics. We are blind as ever and content to be so....

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Quote:
We atheist and theists and the rest of the world excluding agnostics just leave it to common sense and science coupled with history to lead our lives. I should join us before you go crazy.

Indeed. And in so doing, we are raping the world's resources, keeping over half it's population in perpetual poverty and grief, willingly participating in the enslaving of ourselves and our children, giving ever more power and wealth to a few greedy men in black suits, all the while thinking about how civilized and rational we are.

Show me the herd any day, and I'll walk the other way, because there is no doubt in my mind who the truly crazy people are. They are the ones who believe mankind has actually accomplished anything even remotely resembling the goals of our morals and ethics. We are blind as ever and content to be so....

Buddhism is atheist... 'without gods' they have a sustainable philosophy e.g.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01gvryj/Four_Thought_Series_3_Clare_Melford/

Also, how would agnostics prevent this?

1 Reply

@igm,

They wouldn't. My post was more of an outburst that wasn't really related. Just a random outburst, but it did feel good.

But, the absence of belief in gods isn't atheism. Atheism is the rejection of the belief in gods. It is a direct response to theism, and the main reason I consider atheism to be so foolish. It's not really a belief system; it's more an attack on any belief system that features deities.

So buddhism isn't atheist. It's just not concerned with deities. Atheism, however, is concerned with deities. The very word implies them, and I think it's rather silly to refer to a belief system just to tear it down and then call the process another belief...

2 Replies

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

So buddhism isn't atheist. It's just not concerned with deities. Atheism, however, is concerned with deities. The very word implies them, and I think it's rather silly to refer to a belief system just to tear it down and then call the process another belief...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

"Atheism is accepted within some religious and spiritual belief systems, including Jainism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Neopagan movements[15] such as Wicca,[16] and nontheistic religions. Jainism and some forms of Buddhism do not advocate belief in gods,[17] whereas Hinduism holds atheism to be valid, but difficult to follow spiritually.[18]"

It is atheist in the sense I've given. Buddhists refute the notion of a creator god using logic and other philosophical techniques. The notion of gods are used to show beings how to go beyond their belief in gods or their belief that they need to try to become a god or that the notion of gods can be ultimately beneficial.

Ultimately it leads to the realization that the true nature of reality is beyond elaboration... but knowing this they use conventional truth as Buddhists to work to put and end to the suffering of all beings; the cause of which is believing that reality can be elaborated. Sorry if this makes no sense... meditation and reflection on the Buddha's teaching are necessary.

PM me if you've any questions about Buddhism. This thread isn't really the place for it.

1 Reply

@igm,

I've been exploring and practicing buddhism long enough to realize that if I wanted to advance further towards it's goals I had to forsake the ism.

But like I said, I do not consider a belief system or philosophy that has never been concerned with deities to be atheistic. Maybe non-theistic, but such classifications only serve to call attention to that which has nothing to do with it. So why bother?

In the same way of thinking, I think that anti-racism promotes racism. If you want it to go away, don't legitimize a view by adopting it's opposite. Just ignore the issue.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

I agree and dropping the concept of god/s does exactly that... doesn't it?

1 Reply

@igm,

Yes. But if you want to explain atheism, you first have to explain theism. Kind of counterproductive in my opinion. That's why I don't call myself an atheist, even though I don't believe in gods.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

I also like non-theistic. As you've said that may be a better choice of words for those who have dropped the notion of god/s.

1 Reply

@igm,

Perhaps, but it still calls attention to the concept of deities, simply by using the word "theistic". We don't go around saying that our world is "non-tolkienistic". We understand that Tolkien's books have no relevance in real life...

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Perhaps, but it still calls attention to the concept of deities, simply by using the word "theistic".

I don't see the problem perhaps you could explain?

2 Replies

@igm,

That's not quite correct... I see a potential for a problem.. but not here on a2k... nevertheless I'd like you to give your view.

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@igm,

Imagine if you are to explain your worldview, which is completely free of any gods, to a six year old who has never heard of any religions and never been taught about gods. As soon as you use the word "atheistic" or "non-theistic" it is natural to ask what it means, and then you have to explain about gods. Then, when you have explained about gods you have to explain that he has to forget all about them, because they are not relevant to what you are trying to explain. Not a very good approach in my opinion.

1 Reply

@Setanta,

Quote:

You're not worth the bother, but the subject is worth it. So when i see you peddling bullshit definitions the only purpose of which is to support your argument at the outset, to attempt to make others use your terms so that you can always "win," then i'm going to comment. It's like that "guess" bullshit you came up with recently, or your dishonest claim that you are always agnostic about everything.

It's only the militant atheists who are most likely to respond to you. The rest likely can't be bothered. I only comment because you're peddling bullshit and you're cronically dishonest. If one were to judge all christians by the loonies who come here to rant, one would think all christisans are loonies. However, it's a pretty safe bet that the majority of people here are christians, but very few ever comment in religious threads, so it wouldn't be reasonable to see them all as loonies. Your anecdotal evidence is like all anecdotal evidence--worthless.

Yeah, but you are taking the time to try to talk trash to ME...not to deal with the bullshit...so you must think I am worth the bother.

It's okay, Set, you don't have to admit it...we all know.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Quote:

Ha. Come on Frank, now you're just blatantly avoiding the point.

There's a killer Unicorn in your bedroom. Are you seriously telling us that you will consider not going into your bedroom because you think there "might" really be a Unicorn in there?

Do you check your cereal every morning to make sure it hasn't magically changed into drain cleaner?

Rosborne...what on Earth would cause me to think there is a killer unicorn waiting for me anywhere? Because you or one of these other people say so???

C'mon...go for something else. This is a good for laughs...and only for laughs.

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

Cyracuz wrote:

Imagine if you are to explain your worldview, which is completely free of any gods, to a six year old who has never heard of any religions and never been taught about gods. As soon as you use the word "atheistic" or "non-theistic" it is natural to ask what it means, and then you have to explain about gods. Then, when you have explained about gods you have to explain that he has to forget all about them, because they are not relevant to what you are trying to explain. Not a very good approach in my opinion.

Why does he have to forget all about them? That child asks questions and over the years he understands your worldview in context. Then that child decides based on all the information at hand what worldview to adopt for now and maybe for the future. What wrong with that?

1 Reply

@igm,

I think you might be missing the point. Let's try another example. Say you want to teach a child that it is wrong to discriminate based on skin color. What are you really doing to the child if it has never occurred to that child to do so in the first place?

Edit: If you want to teach someone how to do something, you do not first teach them all the wrong ways and then teach them the right way. You teach the right way straight off. Anything else would just cause needless confusion.
Similarly, if you want to teach a non-theistic world view, just do that. Don't call it non-theistic, because by doing so you are calling attention to something you don't want to teach (theistic worldview), thereby causing needless confusion.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am trying to trap anyone with this question.

Oops, you trapped yourself.

You're claiming to be an agnostic always, but you've clearly demonstrated this is not true.

You've given a specific example of religious compliance as well.

You've taken a religious position, but fail to call it such. Perhaps because it's your personal religious construct, and perhaps because you realize religious thinking isn't logical and you are uncomfortable accepting your position as such.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Ha. Come on Frank, now you're just blatantly avoiding the point.

There's a killer Unicorn in your bedroom. Are you seriously telling us that you will consider not going into your bedroom because you think there "might" really be a Unicorn in there?

Do you check your cereal every morning to make sure it hasn't magically changed into drain cleaner?

Rosborne...what on Earth would cause me to think there is a killer unicorn waiting for me anywhere? Because you or one of these other people say so???

C'mon...go for something else. This is a good for laughs...and only for laughs.

The only reason you consider any gods are because someone has said they exist. There is no difference.

A
R
T

1 Reply

@Cyracuz,

I understand you now. I agree.

0 Replies

What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?

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