What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?

@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Are you still agnostic about the invisible flying spaghetti monster?

I cannot categorically rule out any supernatural events or beings. There might be a flying spaghetti monster. I have lots of atheistic friends...and they seemed obsessed by them, so I do not want to insult them by guessing they do not exist.

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@tenderfoot,

Quote:

Frank... After reading the "explanations" you deliver to the intelligent posters on this subject... Your initials of FA in Australia, would bring to mind.... F-ing A-rsoul , and that wouldn't be a myth.

Thank you for that. I am always interested in what Australians think.

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@igm,

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This as I've said before is absurd.

Nothing I have said is absurd...and nothing logically derived from what I have said is absurd either.

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During you lifetime uncountable actions have taken place many witnessed by you and they are all attributable to cause and effect... yet you are agnostic about all future events.

Not sure why you are of the opinion that agnostics reject cause and effect, but do your best to get rid of that idea. It simply is not so.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

There might be a flying spaghetti monster. I have lots of atheistic friends...and they seemed obsessed by them, so I do not want to insult them by guessing they do not exist.

Thank you for giving the spaghetti monster the same respect that you would give any other God. Now let us pray.
http://www.venganza.org/

1 Reply

@spendius,

Quote:

I think that you're an atheist Frank but don't care to admit it because you know that most people consider atheists to be odious creatures.

You are allowed to think whatever you want to think, Spendius, but I am not an atheist.

Theists and a goodly number of so-called atheists are believers. The former "believe" there is a GOD (or are gods)...and the latter "believe" there are no gods. My agnosticism is to get away from "believing" as much as possible...and I certainly am not willing to "believe" there is a GOD...or that there are no gods.

I am a non-believer...which most atheists are not.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I am a non-believer...which most atheists are not.

But you are a very firm believer in the possibility of anything existing and IMHO that requires more faith than any theist or atheist.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am agnostic always...about everything.

If you were walking down a path in the woods (in the real world, not a fantasy world) and came across a large open field that you wanted to cross, but there was a sign on the gate that said, "Warning, This field is protected by a giant invisible unicorn that will kill you if you enter. Do not pass." ... Would you, as an agnostic who does know anything for certain, cross the field?

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

Thank you for giving the spaghetti monster the same respect that you would give any other God. Now let us pray.

First of all, you are welcome, RL.

But this is an interesting point…and I would like to comment on it.

Fact is, most “respect” given to the gods humans claim exist really is not respect at all. It is abject fear.

When Saddam Hussein was in power in Iraq, people used to make a big show of how much “respect” they had for him—often kissing photos of him in public. Once he was out of power, they would just as soon **** on his picture as kiss it. Same goes for people like Idi Amin, Stalin, and ilk of that sort.

The gods most people claim exist hold that kind of power over the people who “believe” they exist.

If your spaghetti monster demands that I kneel and kiss its ass…and it will reward me…I would say, “**** you, shove your rewards up your ass.” If it were established conclusively that a GOD exists and if the god were to demand that I kneel and kiss its ass for rewards, I would say, “**** you. I do not kiss ass. Shove the rewards up the godly ass I’m not about to kiss!”

If the spaghetti monster or god indicated it would torture me severely if I did not kiss its ass…I guess I would think things through more carefully. Torture is not fun.

But knowing me, I would probably still say to both flying spaghetti monster and GOD, “**** you, scumbag, take your best shot.”

And in that light...TO ANY OF THE GODS CURRENTLY BEING WORSHIPED HERE ON EARTH...(which I acknowledge I do not know exist or do not exist)...**** YOU. If you have rewards for me if I do what you want...**** YOU. Shove the rewards up your ass. If you have punishments for me if I do not do what you want me to do...**** YOU TWICE AS MUCH.

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@reasoning logic,

Quote:

But you are a very firm believer in the possibility of anything existing and IMHO that requires more faith than any theist or atheist.

I KNOW (not believe) that it is possible for anything to exist.

No faith or belief involved there.

Try to grasp the concept, RL.

1 Reply

@rosborne979,

Quote:

If you were walking down a path in the woods (in the real world, not a fantasy world) and came across a large open field that you wanted to cross, but there was a sign on the gate that said, "Warning, This field is protected by a giant invisible unicorn that will kill you if you enter. Do not pass." ... Would you, as an agnostic who does know anything for certain, cross the field?

First of all...where on Earth do you get the notion that I, as an agnostic, do not know anything for certain???????????????????????????

Anyway, if I came across an open field that had a sign on it with a warning against crossing it using any reason whatsoever...I WOULD NOT CROSS THE FIELD.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

Anyway, if I came across an open field that had a sign on it with a warning against crossing it using any reason whatsoever...I WOULD NOT CROSS THE FIELD.

I think you missed the point of the question.

The question was intended to test whether your functional behavior (actions, choices) matches up with your philosophy on agnosticism.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

I think you missed the point of the question.

The question was intended to test whether your functional behavior (actions, choices) matches up with your philosophy on agnosticism.

You asked a question...I answered it.

If you have another question...fire away.

By the way, I have a question for you and the others:

Are there any gods?

If you answer "yes" or "no"...do you KNOW that or are you guessing?

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

First of all...where on Earth do you get the notion that I, as an agnostic, do not know anything for certain???????????????????????????

Frank Apisa wrote:

I am agnostic always...about everything.

You simply don't understand the implications and consequences of saying 'I'm an agnostic always.. about everything. You have denied cause and effect and you have to be uncertain about everything; or contradict the logical conclusions of your own philosophy.

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@igm,

Quote:

You simply don't understand the implications and consequences of saying 'I'm an agnostic always.. about everything. You have denied cause and effect and you have to be uncertain about everything; or contradict the logical conclusions of your own philosophy.

Apparently you want to think that agnostics are ignorant people who want to deny cause and effect.

We aren't.

I am not doing so.

If you are of the opinion that an Agnostic does not know anything...then there is nothing I am going to be able to do to help you. If you honestly think I, Frank Apisa, DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING...then you have problems that are not going to be properly address or worked out here in A2K.

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@Frank Apisa,

I didn't say that Frank. I said you don't understand the implications and consequences of your own philosophy. No more, no less. You are actually more likely to be an intelligent hypocrite... IMHO.

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@igm,

Quote:

I didn't say that Frank. I said you don't understand the implications and consequences of your own philosophy. No more, no less. You are actually more likely to be an intelligent hypocrite... IMHO.

If that makes you happy...I am happy.

Are there gods, igm?

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@igm,

Frank: to clarify... you pick and choose your agnosticism until you're forced to admit that to be an agnostic you have to be always uncertain of who or what might cause the next event. When the rest of us just remember what happened in similar past events and assume that a similar outcome will arise under similar circumstances now and in the future... because history shows that to be the case.

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@Frank Apisa,

Quote:

I KNOW (not believe) that it is possible for anything to exist.

No faith or belief involved there.

How can you know what is possible, are you a god or something?
I can understand you saying what is possible about things you understand but to make such claims about things you have not even seen takes a lot of faith.

Example you could say that it is "not" possible for a gasoline engine to run on water under its current configuration and I would agree with you only because I understand the internal workings of a gasoline engine. You could make the same claim about it being possible "for it being able to run on water but your claim of possibility would be incorrect.
Are you certain that anything is possible?

1 Reply

@igm,

Quote:

Frank: to clarify... you pick and choose your agnosticism until you're forced to admit that to be an agnostic you have to be always uncertain of who or what might cause the next event. When the rest of us just remember what happened in similar past events and assume that a similar outcome will arise under similar circumstances now and in the future... because history shows that to be the case.

Igm, to clarify…I do pick and choose what to be doubtful about. I always choose things that "are doubtful" to be doubtful about. I do not KNOW, for instance, whether there are gods involved in the REALITY of existence or not. I do not KNOW, for another instance, whether there are “supernatural” events or beings.

I am always reluctant to take a specific position on a negative of universal proportions, mostly because of the difficulty of sustaining and substantiating a negative assertion. The assertion “There are no gods”, for instance, is something no one should ever make. How does one ever substantiate such an assertion? The assertion “nothing is unexplainable” is another of like quality. That last one even in its positive form “everything is explainable” is so universal, substantiation becomes a virtual impossibility.

So…on those kinds of things, an Agnostic simply says, “I do not know”…and if the Agnostic is like me, he/she adds, “and I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess.”

I can make a wild, blind guess…in these kinds of conversations I often toss a coin to make that kind of guess.

Now, on other items, I either KNOW (Yes, igm, an agnostic CAN know things) that something is so…or I feel there is enough evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess or estimate or theory. I do not ever call those things “beliefs”…I call them guesses, estimates, or theories.

If all that seems unreasonable or hypocritical to you…there is really nothing I can do or say to change that. I have to accept that is the way you feel. But I honestly think that if you just open your mind a bit more, the pieces will fall into place, and you will see my position as reasonable and not as hypocritical. If you still come up unchanged, however, I accept that.

Are there gods, igm?

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Your reply can be summed up with the same word I used in an earlier post... .................. sophistry.

2 Replies

What is your justification for believing in the supernatural?

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