BM wrote:You apparently cannot read--I stated that I don't hate you.
Apparently, you are the one with poor reading comprehension skills. I have nowhere suggested that you hate me. It is a possibility which i do not canvass, as being meaningless to me.
Im sorry you feel that way. Ive found your interest refreshing, you did articulate your position at the outset, and although I disagreed with the teacher because of her 'laziness", I believe she wanted to impart knowledge of a man and a time that helped put a face on the last century as the one which celebrated the art of state sanctioned murder. We "old" people knew and talked with people who were touched by hitlers life. IN our zeal to "not lose the information weve learned' we want to pass it on to your generation so you dont lose the passion or dont trivialize how much evil can be accomplished by" one suitably motivated individual " R Lee Ermy)
theres more knowledge and wisdom that youve witnessed in the discussions among setanta , Thomas, Occom and some others than youd ever see in a whole year at student center.org.
You need to be able to verify and understand truth from bytes.
I teach a science, its grad level and , just to keep me happy and sitting up straight in my wheelchair, my classes vette , CAREFULLY, and supportive data they gather from the internet.
Hitler revisionism is as busy a business on the web as is porn. So part of your ed process is to become discerning , skeptical, and a critic of sites that spend more on presentation graphics than on content.
farmerman,
I respect your reasoning coming from a former teacher. And it makes sense they way you explained it. But I would have to disagree with you conclusion.
It is just like Sex if you don't teach them what sex is they will learn from their peers. So teaching them early equips them with knowledge that allows them to decern for themselves if what their peers are telling them is the truth.
The same is with the violence--you have to learn what is right and what is wrong and if they know what is right and what is wrong in violence then another Hitler would never come to power again.
I dont disagree. I am only against her method. As I said, "Atrocities-good or bad?" is for talk shows and tabloids.
The students cant get just the sound bytes, they must be educated as per the interelations of the Man and the time. Its a quest that requires scholarship, not entertainment.
Setanta wrote:This site is noteworthy for being free of cliques. Because people here won't accept your ill-founded contentions, and attack specious premises which apparently constitute your personal sacred cows does not mean you are hated. No one here knows you in real life, so it is absurd to contend that you are hated. The claims you make without reliable support, and your resentful style elicit comments that you have chosen to interpreted as expressing hatred. And finally, teaching history is about the best available information, and a statement such as: "Disagree all you want with my observation but you are not me so you don't see it the same."--demonstrates that you just don't get it. What happened in Europe between 1933 and 1945 is not an abstract principal which we debate from differing points of view; it was a sustained horror on a scale hitherto unknown, but about which enormous amounts of reliable documentary evidence has been compiled. We are not disagreeing with you because we're old (in your eyes), or because you are young, or because you are hated, or as a simple matter of differing opinion. That you are young and resentful informs a rhetorical style which is abrasive and tends to lead others to discount what you write simply because of the tone. But this discussion, on the specific topic of any value attaching to the medical torture of death camp inmates, is one in which you have failed to support your contentions, and one in which the others posting have both good knowledge, and reliable standards for judging the value of the materials presented.
The question I have for you is why should any of what you say be worth anything? What proof that you have should I look at and think that it is right? You blow off my sites as nothing. Why should I trust anything that post? How do I know it is from a valid source? I do not know and you cannot prove it. History is left to interpretation . No one knows. Even if they were they still don't know all aspects of what occur. They can only share what? Aw their view point. That is all it is. History books are that of a person's view point. Nothing is 100% right.
BM wrote:They can only share what? Aw their view point. That is all it is. History books are that of a person's view point. Nothing is 100% right.
In making this statement, you demonstrate a profound ignorance of the standards of historiography. Writing reliable historical accounts results in far more than "a person's point of view." In particular, regimes like the Nazi regime have throughout history obsessively kept detailed records of every horror committed, and the chain of authorization for those actions. The Nuremburg tribunals might be criticized on the basis of jurisprudence, procedure and legitimacy. However, the evidence used was so damning because it was provided by the defendants themselves in their obsessive need to record every act for which they proudly took credit--until they were defeated and found themselves before the judges.
BlueMonkey wrote:
Yeah good job in going to the right place---yeah none of that is in the debate board. But nice to know you have an imagination.
Well, it was at their homepage, one minute before I posted that above ... and it's still there this very minute :wink:
BlueMonkey wrote: The question I have for you is why should any of what you say be worth anything?
This is a valid question. Like you BM, I find myself in this discussion with people better informed than myself. Setanta, Farmerman, Walter and Thomas have all demonstrated profound knowledge of history and excellent critical thinking skills in the past and I therefore attach extra weight to their words. They've also exhibited a willingness to consider opposing viewpoints when authoring their comments. A glance at our mutual history would reveal that these men rarely agree with my politics and frequently disagree with each other's. You will also notice a healthy amount of respect given to opposing viewpoints when deserved. Do not feel like you are being attacked by a clique mentality... If such a clique existed; I would likely lack the credentials to gain membership too, so it is precisely your arguments that are being attacked. Instead of feeling boxed in by these wise men; relish the opportunity to learn from them, as I do. My core beliefs are well defined and I'll argue them with anyone. But, my opinions are constantly being redefined and in no small part by the knowledge of the afore mentioned men and others like them. Thank you for including me in your assessment of "old man mentality". Considering the peer group; it is the highest compliment I've received recently. :wink:
Re: Teacher criticized for Hitler 'pros and cons' assignment
roverroad wrote:A New York teacher is in hot water for giving an assignment for students to research the pros and cons of three dictators- Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Josef Stalin.
What do you think of this method of teaching? Is there a valuable lesson to be learned by teaching kids the good points of evil?
its about yin and yang. Good can not exist without evil so people should be taught both sides to historical figures. Hitler was a brilliant public speaker and artist. He had a problem with humanitarian causes though
Re: Teacher criticized for Hitler 'pros and cons' assignment
BWShooter wrote:its about yin and yang. Good can not exist without evil so people should be taught both sides to historical figures.
The existence of good and evil is rarely a historically significant question.
BWShooter wrote:Hitler was a brilliant public speaker and artist.
Hitler was a brilliant artist? Have you ever seen
some of his stuff? Really, it's all pretty banal.
BWShooter wrote:He had a problem with humanitarian causes though
I can only imagine that this statement was made with full consideration of its immense irony.
Re: Teacher criticized for Hitler 'pros and cons' assignment
roverroad wrote:A New York teacher is in hot water for giving an assignment for students to research the pros and cons of three dictators- Hitler, Benito Mussolini and Josef Stalin.
Click here for the story
What do you think of this method of teaching? Is there a valuable lesson to be learned by teaching kids the good points of evil? Or are any good points nullified by the bad things that they had done?
Are we actually rewriting history if we only focus on one part of it? As evil as hitler was you have to admit that he was a powerful leader. To be able to bring a country together the way he did, as horrible as the reasons were, he must have had some good points. But to even say such a thing will get you in hot water and put you in a position that you probably don't want to be in.
What do you think of this issue?
Hi, I decided to join this forum and post here because most people don't know what actually happened in the classroom. I am one of Ms. Lyons' student, the problem that I had with this subject was not the assignment, i understand that Hitler has some positive influences such as reviving german economy after WWI. This wasn't the first time our classes had talked about the pros of Hitler, the problem was that the teacher made a statement saying "Sometimes when Hitler boiled the jews it was a good thing" she also made remarks about experiments on twins to a girl in the classroom who is a twin. When a student tried to argue that nothing positive came from the death camps, our teacher sent him to the principles for acting up in class. None of that was ever posted in the newspaper articles because no reporters ever bothered to ask anyone that was in the class at the time the project was assigned. I myself am jewish and refused to write the essay for her, my average for the quarter was dropped 20 points.
Welcome to A2K Saimang! Stick around; you'll like it here.
Having read your post, I hereby retract everything I said that could be construed as a defense of this teacher. She is clearly deserving of the labels given her by others. Thanks for the clarification Saimang.
Yes...welcome to A2K Saimang. It's a really great place.
I agree with Bill about retracting any of my statements in defense of the teacher
IF what you are saying is true.
You've only been around for 1 post so far and for all I now you could be an old man in Zimbabwe.
Either way - have fun on A2K
wow, and I only accused her of intellectual laziness. I hope youre not scamming us, because if what you say is true, ....man, she needs some careercounseling, fast.
Saimang
I'm amazed to have such a revelation from one of her students. I cannot condone the teacher's action which you describe.
Any theoretical defence of discussion of "pros & cons", which I made above, should be seen as that: theoretical. Like the others who have posted since you, I'm appalled by the treatment you describe.
KP
Saimang, it seems, saddly, that you were misinformed by that class. The Nazis were responsible for nothing positive in Germany. Economic recovery was a product of the policies of Weimar. They had to bite the bullet, and institute the austerity programs and repay the reparations, which eventually allowed the German economy to recover. Your teacher sounds more and more like a Crypto-Nazi herself.
Hi, thanks for the welcome. The school has sent the teacher to one tolerance course and she had to bring the class on a field trip a local JCC where we were able to speak to holocaust survivors. While we were there she managed to offend one of the survivors speaking to us by refering to jews as cattle when they were put onto trains. The school decided to hire her for next year anyways, administration said they think they can teach her to become a better teacher. Personally I still hate the woman, but there are some people that disagree and think shes a good teacher. If theres anything new that comes up with the situation I'll keep everyone interested informed because there are still parents protesting the whole thing. Thanks for listening to what actually happened, it agrivates me that nobody ever bothered to ask people who were actually there what happened, so i appreciate it.
