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Teacher criticized for Hitler 'pros and cons' assignment

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2004 10:56 am
Setanta wrote:
It is easy to see why there was outrage in the community. My original search did turn up excerpts of other articles which quote Miss Lyons as attempting to defend the regime by pointing to medical advances which resulted from the death camp experiments.

In this case, I fully agree with what you said. This is indeed indefensible and irresponsible.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2004 11:47 am
Setanta: I would like to point out that somewhere along the line I was given the same impression about the medical experiments. My respect for your knowledge of history tells me I'm wrong. Here's the problem. I am no Nazis sympathizer and I don't believe for a moment that any of my teachers were either. If memory serves; every history teacher I ever had made it abundantly clear Hitler was a monster. Should this woman be crucified for making a mistake? At best; she tried to teach the horror in a roundabout way. At worst; she is guilty of poor judgment. But I truly think slandering her character based on the available information is way over the top.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2004 12:13 pm
I don't know that i've engaged in slandering her character, O'Bill. I would point out again that a contention that the experiments in the death camps had value as medical research is not only not history, it is contrary to a broad-consensus assement by those who do medical research professionally. I would also point out again that such a contention is not taught in university history courses, whether survey or specialist, so that it is evident that the teacher has used a different source. Based upon that, i say that the teacher has either allowed herself to be duped by those who admire the Nazis, or she herself is one of them, and does not openly admit as much.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2004 12:53 pm
Setanta: Believing good came from those experiments is apparently indicative of my ignorance. However, your assumption that it is not taught in university history courses is a bit too all-inclusive. Professors are people and people make mistakes. Sometimes without malice or even a purpose, they simply believe something that is untrue. I respect your knowledge enough that I require no further convincing. If at some point in my past I had passed on that faulty information, the recipient of it would not have been "duped by those who admire the Nazis" let alone be one for repeating it.
Aside: I have a tremendous amount of respect, not only for your knowledge of history, but your ability to deliver the goods in an interesting way. Some "long-posters" I won't bother to read at all. Your posts simply can't be too long. If you've ever authored a book; please PM me the details and I assure you I will not violate your right to anonymity. :wink:
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2004 02:23 pm
You're very kind, O'Bill, in your praise, which it is not at all certain, to me, is deserved. Your point about people believing a thing is well taken--however, historiography (the study of the research and writing of history) has the same rules of evidence as does the practice of criminal law, at least in terms of the reliability of evidence. It is unlikely that an instructor at a reputable university would be teaching something such as this absent having verified the facts. I acknowledge, however, that you have a point.

You also have a point about "wrong" things getting repeated in all innocence. I would then point out, however, that someone teaching history who "passes along" such information is sufficiently clueless about their professed field of study not to deserve to continue in that employment.
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Ceili
 
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Reply Mon 22 Mar, 2004 06:48 pm
Set and Thomas, I find your post so very interesting. Thank you.
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g day
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 06:35 pm
Those who ignore or forget history are condemned to repeat it.

I think the topic is fine for a 16 / 18 year old + audience.
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katya8
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Mar, 2004 09:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
I would like to weigh in here with a little more background. The term facist comes from Italy--the old conundrum about the trains running on time in Italy ignores the cronyism and corrupt liaisons with business and industry which was killing the Italian economy by the 1930's and which lead to Moussolini's imperialist adventures in Africa. Of the four Facist dictators in Europe in the 1930's, he was arguably the most inept. Mataxas in Greece was a great admirer of Hitler and Franco, and would likely have been an ally, had not the idiot Moussolini invaded his nation. Franco was simply repeating the conservative counterrevolution which was a feature of every attempt to install a liberal government in Spain after 1814. Hitler was the worst of the bunch, although Stalin was much more destructive--but Stalin was not a facist. If the discussion were whether or not some good was eventually extracted from the insane cruelty of the concentration camps, that might be an appropriate discussion. Hitler was not responsible, however, even for those ghastly experiments. He was simply responsible for the atmosphere which allowed them to be carried out.

The standard defense of facist dictators has been that they did their people some good in a time of need. This ignores, however, that these men in particular had really no useful political ideas of their own. Moussolini had been a socialist newspaper editor, who used a mish-mash of the ideas of others to create a governmental equivalent of Scientology. Facism in Italy was doomed, because it simply did not work. It survived in Spain because of a history (easily demonstrated) of a deep conservatism in that nation which runs counter the liberal tradition which had grown up in Europe since 1789 and 1848. In Germany, Hitler was responsible for none of the programs which seemed to benefit the average Germans. The economy in Germany was recovering when he took power, because the Weimar Republic had knuckled down and paid the reparations from the First World War, and then practiced the essential austerity without which economic recovery would not have been possible. The soup kitchens and make-work public works projects which the Nazis were at pains to publicize were the brain-child of Ernst Rohm and his brown shirts, co-opted by Hitler--even then, the idea of how to organize the public relations campaign was very more likely the idea of Rudolph Hess. The danger inherent in such a discussion is that as a result of the necessarily shallow examination of the historical record which is the norm in secondary education, and even in university historical survey course for non-majors, the student will not get sufficient information to make a realistic assessment of the man, as opposed to the course of events. Hitler was a dangerously pathological individual, and there is no stretch of the historical imagination which can tie him to any benefit having accrued from his reign of terror. I rate only Josef Dugashvilli (Stalin) as a worse blight on the history of mankind.
(((((((((((((((((setanta))))))))))))
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BlueMonkey
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 05:35 am
Setanta wrote:
An unidentified physician wrote:
I learn from my patients all the time. That is one of the great joys of being a physician. Tenth-grade teacher Anne Lyons needs to take a lesson from her students who objected to her instructing them to defend Adolf Hitler.

Incredulously, it appears that she is under the impression that so called "medical experiments'' done on concentration camp prisoners "led to advancements in the medical field.'' These "experiments'' were nothing less than torture, participants did not volunteer . . .


It is easy to see why there was outrage in the community. My original search did turn up excerpts of other articles which quote Miss Lyons as attempting to defend the regime by pointing to medical advances which resulted from the death camp experiments. Given the background i've already referred to, this is what lead me initially to conclude that Ms. Lyons is either a dupe of, or a subscriber to the secret admiration of the Nazis and of Hitler.


It does not state that there were no advancements. It states only that it was wrong on what was done. And she isn't in secret admiration of the Nazis--just because she doesn't hold your beilfs on that matter doesn't make it so.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/medtoc.html
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 31 Mar, 2004 06:20 am
BM, you're not worth the time to respond in any detail. Read the entire thread, and perhaps your adolescent opinions will one day mature, so that you understand that holding an informed opinion has more to do with learning and understanding, and nothing to do with simply disagreeing with others because you think it makes you cool. I find your "logic" here, as everywhere else i've encountered it, pathetic.
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BlueMonkey
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 02:28 pm
Setanta wrote:
BM, you're not worth the time to respond in any detail. Read the entire thread, and perhaps your adolescent opinions will one day mature, so that you understand that holding an informed opinion has more to do with learning and understanding, and nothing to do with simply disagreeing with others because you think it makes you cool. I find your "logic" here, as everywhere else i've encountered it, pathetic.


Ooooh so smart of you--and yet not. Care not for your opinion as you do not mine.

Should you ever retract your head from your neatherregions you would know that you are wrong and that no matter how much pain and suffering is caused to humans during that time advancement was made. Should you know want to accept it that is fine.

And I have read everything. Should I have to comment on everything that I read? No. Am I doing this for cool factor? no.

I personaly found a better posting site than this. And the funny thing is, is that the site that I found has young people and comparing them to this site I found that open minds are younger. Older people tend to be set in their boring ways and refuse to open even a sliver of what they have left of a brain. Therefore your comments on me make me laugh considering I have an open mind and you seem to have a sign that says "closed" hanging on it.
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Setanta
 
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Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 07:13 pm
Lot of hot air from someone who claims not to care . . .
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BlueMonkey
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:38 pm
Setanta wrote:
Lot of hot air from someone who claims not to care . . .


Lacking in any kind of wit what so ever--you disapoint me. And intresting considering you said I wasn't worth a reply.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:50 pm
In fact, i stated that you're not worth the time to respond in any detail. Read the thread, open your mind . . .
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roverroad
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:52 pm
You're all going to get this thread locked...
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Apr, 2004 08:56 pm
There have been no TOS violations on my part, RR. I got tired of this child in other threads. As i spent a great deal of time in this thread explaining why the admirers of Hitler are full of hooey, and knowing that BM disagrees just because he can, i'm making it plain that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and that i'm not going to write it all over again just so he can interject his petulant and uniformed, contrarian objections.
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BlueMonkey
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2004 09:30 am
Setanta wrote:
In fact, i stated that you're not worth the time to respond in any detail. Read the thread, open your mind . . .


Why reply to hot air.
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BlueMonkey
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2004 09:30 am
Setanta wrote:
There have been no TOS violations on my part, RR. I got tired of this child in other threads. As i spent a great deal of time in this thread explaining why the admirers of Hitler are full of hooey, and knowing that BM disagrees just because he can, i'm making it plain that he doesn't know what he's talking about, and that i'm not going to write it all over again just so he can interject his petulant and uniformed, contrarian objections.


Your too easy and too old all at the same time.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2004 09:35 am
Too old, that's hilarious . . . once at a party, some of us were spraying a harmless pink die in our hair, and a little girl asked her mother if she would do that. Her mother replied: "I'm too old for that." It always cracked me up . . .

For however "easy" you may think me to be, and in despite of my age, you still either have not read the thread, or failed to absorb that the specific points the teacher was attempting to make, and to which her students first objected, are not sustainable points. The medical community of the world has rejected the claim that any useful "research" was done in the death camps. If you wish to claim that is closed-minded, you're certainly entitled. And others are thereby entitled to characterize your stubborn argument-for-argument's-sake as contrarian.

You can have lots of fun, though--the crypto-nazis and the openly avowed white supremecists will welcome you with open arms.
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BlueMonkey
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2004 10:09 am
http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/products/a192/a192.gif
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