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Teacher criticized for Hitler 'pros and cons' assignment

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 05:10 pm
Hmmm, Setanta. You are basically right, but Porsche started his Projekt No. 12 with the Zündapp Factories in Stuttgart - just prototypes were produced in 1930/31.
In 1933 he built with NSU (Zündapp didn't give any more money) (at 'Draunz' and 'Reutter' factories) the newer Modell No. 32 - the three built prototypes looked "beetle-like".
Typ 60 was built in 1935, after several discussions with various Nazi-organisations, Hitelr and other difficulties.
1937 were the first Volkswagen (more than 30) built by Daimler-Benz in Sindelfingen.
On May 26, 1938 - the day of the laying of the cornerstone for the new VW-factory in what than became "Stadt des KdF-Wagens" [after the war Wolfsburg] - the first serie Volkswagons were delivered from the Porsche factory in Stuttgart.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Feb, 2004 06:45 pm
Well, Walter, i could always be wrong (no, no, it's true!); however, i've read in more than one source (which could be a repetition of a single erroneous source) that the VW Beetle was a design which Porsche ripped off after Hitler handed him Skoda.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Feb, 2004 01:03 am
I might be wrong, too, especially since I'm referring to works, which Hans Mommsen in 1987 (Mommsen/Grieger: Das Volkswagenwerk und seine Arbeiter im dritten Reich, 1996, Econ, Düsseldorf)). :wink:


link to to reviews in English HERE

and

Here

This might be of some interst as well: Competition as War: Towards a socio-analysis of war in and among corporations




Ad for getting a "Saving booklet" for getting a Volkswagen from 1938
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/630_2/200.jpg

Poster from 1937/8
http://www.dhm.de/lemo/objekte/pict/96002327/index.jpg
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 02:55 am
re 'medical advanteges':
from today's INDEPENDENT

Quote:

Stasi files 'hid proof that showed doctor was Nazi murderer'
By Tony Paterson in Berlin
14 February 2004


Communist East Germany kept Rosemarie Albrecht's Nazi past a closely-guarded secret for40 years. Its regime showered the physician with awards and gave her the title "People's Doctor of Outstanding Merit". It never revealed her alleged role in Hitler's infamous "euthanasia" murders of the mentally handicapped.

Professor Albrecht is now 88, and livingon a state pension at her home outside the East German town of Gera. Later this year she is to appear in court charged with helping to kill more than 150 mentally handicapped women and children at a Nazi hospital during the Second World War.

Her case is expected to result in one of the last major Nazi "euthanasia" trials in post-war Germany. It has only come to light because of evidence unearthed in East German Stasi secret police files, which showed that her activities during the Nazi era were covered up by the communist regime.

Last week, state prosecutors in Gera formally charged Professor Albrecht with the murder of one 34-year-old mentally handicapped woman at Germany's Stadtroda Hospital in 1941 and with complicity in the killing of a further 158 female patients in her care between 1940 and 1942. Many were girls.

The deaths were among an estimated 900 "euthanasia" killings at the hospital in accordance with Nazi doctrine, which stipulated the mentally handicapped were a "useless burden" on the German people.

The charges are the result of a four-year investigation by Gera state prosecutors. "The evidence against Professor Albrecht is contained in a meticulously-kept hospital archive, which shows one of her women patients was given a massive dose of sleeping tablets that resulted in her death," said Raimund Sauter, the prosecutor leading the investigation. "Without the evidence unwittingly provided by the Stasi, it is doubtful we would have been alerted to her case."

Many other mentally handicapped women and children were allegedly given huge doses of barbiturates which weakened their lungs and eventually led to their dying from pulmonary infections. "To the outside it looked like natural death," said Dr Goetz Aly, a German historian who has been pursuing the Albrecht case.

Professor Albrecht has repeatedly denied the allegations against her. She is on record as having told journalists: "Amuse yourselves, you'll get nothing from me." She has described her time at the Stadtroda in glowing terms. "Those were wonderful years. I could work , work and work," she said in a German medical journal.

Stasi files unearthed during the investigation showthe communist regime decided to conceal her Nazi past to ward off international condemnation. The files, dating back to 1964, were codenamed Ausmerzer (the wiper-out). But by that time the professor had already won the approval of the communist regime. She was honoured for successfully treating the former East German leader Walter Ulbricht and went on to become a deacon at Jena University.

Her Stasi file reveals that secret police were reluctant to investigate her from the outset. "As the accused holds a high position, an investigation could produce a result that would contradict the conditions of our society," a senior Stasi officer said in her dossier. The Stasi subsequently called off plans to investigate her, claiming that there was "insufficient evidence" to bring charges.

"We are all shocked by these revelations," said Andreas Blei, head of the German government's Stasi investigation unit in Gera. "Most East Germans thought that they were morally superior to capitalist West Germany because they believed in the official line which held the communist state had rooted out Nazism."
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 04:05 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
... I find that more educational than memorizing that "Hitler was bad". ...


But he was bad. Anything "positive" to come out of his time as dictator certainly wasn't due to any altruism on his part.

I may have seen the same documentary as you did because I recall a comment made that those who died from the medical experiments would likely have wanted their deaths to have some meaning....that by ignoring all of the medical information would be worse...that by making the best possible use from their deaths provided a form of honour to them...to die so that others may live...
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:03 am
caprice wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
... I find that more educational than memorizing that "Hitler was bad". ...


But he was bad. Anything "positive" to come out of his time as dictator certainly wasn't due to any altruism on his part.

I may have seen the same documentary as you did because I recall a comment made that those who died from the medical experiments would likely have wanted their deaths to have some meaning....that by ignoring all of the medical information would be worse...that by making the best possible use from their deaths provided a form of honor to them...to die so that others may live...
Precisely Caprice! And, there in, lies the proof that good can be derived from bad actions. The doctors performing the experiments could only be described as "bad"... But "good" doctors may well have gained the necessary information to save lives with the knowledge. Isn't that more educational than the comic book depiction of Good Vs Evil? (I sincerely hope no one's misinterpreting my words as Pro-Hitler).
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:14 am
The end does not justify the means. The price of knowledge should never be thru acts as hideous as those committed by Mengele and his brethren. Even to suggest that it is-is depraved.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:19 am
au1929 wrote:
The end does not justify the means. The price of knowledge should never be thru acts as hideous as those committed by Mengele and his brethren. Even to suggest that it is-is depraved.
Rolling Eyes I have seen not one single person suggest such a thing. We were discussing the effect the material from the hideous atrocity could have. NO ONE condoned the acts at all.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:20 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Precisely Caprice! And, there in, lies the proof that good can be derived from bad actions. The doctors performing the experiments could only be described as "bad"... But "good" doctors may well have gained the necessary information to save lives with the knowledge. Isn't that more educational than the comic book depiction of Good Vs Evil? (I sincerely hope no one's misinterpreting my words as Pro-Hitler).


When you ever had read something about these "experiences" by those 'bad' doctors, or - even better - had seen just one of these 'doctor rooms' in any KZ, you surely (hopefully) would would understand better that no 'good' doctor can have taken advantage from that.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:34 am
OCCOM BILL


Quote:
The doctors performing the experiments could only be described as "bad"... But "good" doctors may well have gained the necessary information to save lives with the knowledge
.

You are indicating, it would seem, that the end justifies the means. It does not and never will.
The price paid will never equal it's worth. Again to even suggest it is depraved.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:40 am
In total agreement with au. And with the medical profession as well: none of these "experiments" were ever used as basis for anything (after 1945).
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 09:43 am
I respectfully disagree with you Walter. The discovery of a biological fact remains a fact regardless of how it was discovered. No good doctor could ever ignore a fact; and once the knowledge was derived from these horrific experiments; it became part of the body of knowledge doctors use to save lives. I have not suggested the end justifies the means. NOTHING justifies these means. However, facts uncovered in these experiments have subsequently saved lives. In other words; some "good" has come out of a horrendously "bad" thing.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 10:25 am
I have to agree with Bill here.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that there was some valuable medical information that was gained by these inhuman means.

As a scientist I would not ignore this data just because of how it was gathered. Data is data. Throwing it away is stupid, especially if this data can do some real good.

The ends don't justify the means. This means that a responsible scientist (or human being) would never advocate this type of experimentation -- and in fact would do everything possible to stop it.

But the Nazi's were defeated and (hypothetically) there is useful data they left behind. Using this information is not justifying anything. Using information that is available does not require us to condone or commit any brutality, past or present.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 10:26 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
However, facts uncovered in these experiments have subsequently saved lives. In other words; some "good" has come out of a horrendously "bad" thing.


No - all these "experiments" have been done (IF!) again, differently, without human victims - or all are lying.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 10:32 am
Well, I must admit: actually, I only heard a little bit of medical history at university and read just a few this time related books about that - I certainly might be wrong and you might have better knowledge Embarrassed
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Portal Star
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 10:43 am
Sounds like a good assignment - having to argue an incredibly difficult position, or look at things in a reverse light.

I think she could have given the same assignment with slighly less controversial subjects.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 11:14 am
I am impressed by your thoughtfulness and calm reason on what is apparently a painful topic for you Walter. There is no need for the "Embarrassed" emoticon. I can not fortify my "benefit" claims definitively either. Ebrown_p's use of the word hypothetical is very appropriate.
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caprice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 06:45 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
... And, there in, lies the proof that good can be derived from bad actions. ...


I would not look at it that way. Perhaps it is subtle, but your statements (however well intentioned they may be) imply a direct association of good to the evil. There was nothing good about any of the atrocities. In the case of the medical information...the good came from the researchers...not the information the researchers had from those terrible experiments. The information itself held no virtues. It was how that information subsequently became used that was good.
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 07:06 pm
Caprice, you would be inferring something I NEVER implied.
My original post referred to the "despicable research" and went on to include "If the teacher was really glorifying Nazism, than of course she should be subject to censure."
My second post included "I sincerely hope no one's misinterpreting my words as Pro-Hitler"
My third post described it as a "hideous atrocity" and pointed out "NO ONE condoned the acts at all."
My fourth post emphatically points out "NOTHING justifies these means." and goes on to refer to it as a "horrendously "bad" thing".
Do you really require more disclaimer than that? Rolling Eyes No wonder the teacher is in trouble! :wink:
0 Replies
 
caprice
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Feb, 2004 08:12 pm
You're completely misunderstanding my post. You said "good can be derived from bad"...those were your words...and your general argument seemed to be that good could come out of bad. Sure, maybe you can say good can come out of bad. But Hitler wasn't just bad, he was evil. And my argument is that (at least in the case of Hitler) good does not come directly from evil. That was what I attempted to illustrate in my example of the medical atrocities. They were evil. The results of those evils were not good per se, but the information gained from those results were used for good. So...to draw a sort of line, evil was used to gain information, information was used for useful, positive purposes. It's sort of like there is an extra step in there. Perhaps it's more of an emotional thing to see it this way, but you cannot ever say there is good from evil.

You also said,
OCCUM BILL wrote:
High school history tends to paint historical figures as Devils or Saints with little middle ground.

In the case of Hitler, what middle ground is there? As an historical figure he did no good. Perhaps some in history were attempting good and were misguided or may have wanted good things but had a lust for power as a downfall. This is not the case with Hitler or Stalin. (I confess to knowing little about Mussolini and not enough to comment on.) There is no reason to give them any positive attributes.
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