0
   

Kerry v Bush: The Facts, the Campaigns and the Spin...

 
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 06:59 pm
Sofia wrote:
It reminds me of the sturm and drang of trying to get authentic figures about UN funding.

[..] I'm not asking for someone to be the House Documentalist... but I think, in the end, the 'truth' rests in each individual's preference of how to interpret the data. [..] we could do this all night....


Oeh, you're opening up a lot of old wounds here. But different beasts we're talking of.

For example, the UN data I brought in, that one thread, were pretty damn solid. Well-researched, broken down in painstaking detail, without editorialising by those who'd crunched them. Uncomparable to the stuff from Radikal's post I copied here: looks and feels like a copy'n'paste from campaign literature. Doesnt mean there isnt still something in it - just that its a different beast.

Hence no house-documentalising from my side. If I feel confident with stuff, I will elaborate on it, like with the UN data, which I'd pored over and sought out for quite a while. Post like the above is just what it is - hey, these are some Bush flip-flops someone posted in some other thread, feels like a copy/paste job - take it or leave it for what it is. No problem with deconstructing it, as my last post above will have shown ... :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 07:07 pm
Sofia wrote:
...and they said he had cut funding. If the facts presented in this article are true--the Democrats just lied...


Hmmm ... perhaps "cut funding" as in, "retreated from the level of funding promised" ?

Kinda like a virtual cut, that is: a cut from what was still a virtual (i.e., future) budget?

Bit of linguistic acrobatics, that would be ... but I really dont know sh!t about No Child Left Behind, so I cant really judge on it one way or another. Sozobe would know.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2004 08:17 pm
nimh--

That dratted experience (the UN discussion) was why I was trying to be careful not to be dismissive of the list--and why I didn't want to appear to be throwing you the House Documentalist gauntlet, as in inferring that you should sally forth and dig up more stuff. Not only was no offense intended--I was actively deferring to you with the two comments.

I wasn't seeking to hide behind 'linguistic acrobatics'; equally, I didn't want to be swayed by same. To satisfy myself (and opposing viewpoints), I'd have to find a legitimate link with unshakable numbers and source. Something I was unwilling to do tonight.

I've read articles on both sides of this debate, but none I'd hang my hat on.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 04:17 am
Sofia wrote:
I wasn't seeking to hide behind 'linguistic acrobatics'


The 'linguistic acrobats' bit referred to what I inferred the Democratic argument to be here, not to what you were saying. So I wasnt insinuating you were 'hiding' behind such - I was actually acknowledging your point here. (Though I really do know too little about it to know which party's assertions are right). Pretty much like I was also acknowledging your critical take on the assertions in the list in my previous post about #4 & 5, as well.

The UN financing thread was perhaps the single thread here I found the most persuasive data for, ever. This time, I just reposted a list of asserted flip-flops that I recognized as probably being from campaign literature, but wanted to "throw out there" nevertheless, see what people thought. Contrast couldnt be bigger.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 09:53 am
This is a pretty good collection of Bush flip-flops:

http://www.compassiongate.com/promises/

Excerpts:

Quote:
Believe in local control of schools, not
control out of Washington

Schools should be given enough resources and authority

[Bush]: "...I believe in local control of schools..."

[Bush]: "...I believe education is a national
priority, but it's also a local responsibility. I want
to give schools -- I want to give schools the
resources and authority to chart their own path
to excellence. My opponent thinks Washington
knows best..."
_______________________________________

Through the Orwellian No Child Left Behind (NCLB)
Act, Bush imposed Federal control over schools.
Additionally by underfunding NCLB he has
NOT given schools the resources
"to chart their own path to excellence".


As a result multiple states are either
challenging or opting out of NCLB.

http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_sbn_issue.asp?TRACKID=&VID=55&CID=682&DID=33124


The main beef I have seen across the board is that NCLB is an underfunded mandate. He promised money that was not forthcoming -- a "cut" is probably not strictly true, no. The effect is that the law was passed under false pretenses, and the money to make it effective is not forthcoming:

Quote:
Which raises the question: Are we as a people willing to pay the price - are we willing to sign the social contract - to give city children more good teachers and small classes?

The answer is supposed to be the federal No Child Left Behind law, passed in 2002. It mandates that every American child be proficient in reading and math by 2014, that the achievement gap between white and black be eliminated once and for all.

To do this, President Bush's budget calls for spending $13 billion for all Title I poverty schools in America. In other words, what Mayor Bloomberg says he needs extra for the New York City schools is what the president has offered for all the nation's poor schools.

At heart, leaving no child behind is about eliminating poverty's effects. To President Lyndon B. Johnson, that meant war - a war on poverty - since war is the best model we have for the kind of mobilization it would take. We understand that military wars cost; that's why the president has asked Congress for an extra $25 billion for Iraq.

And for the education war? All the rhetoric and data are in place for the education war: high standards, tough accountability, disaggregated data by the truckload. But financing?

No Child Left Behind is superb at finding fault. It has labeled a third of America's schools failing. It has labeled over half of New York City's middle schools failing. Within a few years, almost all city middle schools are expected to carry that label. Fine, fail them all. But where is the money from the states and the federal government to arm city schools with small classes and more good teachers?

Blaming public schools, their principals and teachers for losing the education war feels a lot like blaming the ground troops for losing the Vietnam War. Are we committed to an education war? Do we have the will? I fear that the late Walt Kelly, creator of the comic strip Pogo, had it right: We have met the enemy and he is us.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/26/education/26memo.html

Quote:
The No Child Left Behind? report finds that funding gaps in NCLB and other federal education programs in 2003 were daunting:

NCLB overall had a gap of more than $32.6 billion.
NCLB's Title I-A program for disadvantaged students had a funding gap of $16.5 billion
Federal education funding for 2004 is not yet final, however it is clear Title I-A is likely to have funding gap of about $28 billion.
The funding trend is getting worse, not better.


http://www.nsba.org/site/doc_sbn_issue.asp?TRACKID=&VID=55&CID=682&DID=33124

Full NEA report, "No Child Left Behind? The Funding Gap in ESEA and Other Federal Education Programs":

http://www.nea.org/esea/images/funding-gap.pdf
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2004 11:39 am
Relevant re: Bush flip-flops on policies and budgets is this item - not from some Democratic campaign brochure this time, but from MSNBC's First Read, picking up on a Washington Post report - my emphasis:

Quote:
In the wee hours this morning, some Democrats already were putting this Washington Post report in the context of an earlier New York Times look at how Bush is campaigning on domestic programs he's actually proposing to cut: "The White House put government agencies on notice this month that if President Bush is reelected, his budget for 2006 may include spending cuts for virtually all agencies in charge of domestic programs, including education, homeland security and others that the president backed in this campaign year."

An OMB spokesperson told the Post that the written notice to the agencies, "titled 'Planning Guidance for the FY 2006 Budget,' is a routine 'process document' to help agency officials begin establishing budget procedures for 2006. In no way should it be interpreted as a final policy decision, or even a planning document, he said."

"The funding levels referred to in the memo would be a tiny slice out of the federal budget... But the cuts are politically sensitive, targeting popular programs that Bush has been touting on the campaign trail." Examples: "The administration has widely touted a $1.7 billion increase in discretionary funding for the Education Department in its 2005 budget, but the 2006 guidance would pare that back by $1.5 billion. The Department of Veterans Affairs is scheduled to get a $519 million spending increase in 2005, to $29.7 billion, and a $910 million cut in 2006 that would bring its budget below the 2004 level... The $78 million funding increase that Bush has touted for a homeownership program in 2005 would be nearly reversed in 2006 with a $53 million cut."

"Even homeland security -- a centerpiece of the Bush reelection campaign -- would be affected. Funding would slip in 2006 by $1 billion, to $29.6 billion, although that would still be considerably higher than the $26.6 billion devoted to that field in 2004, according to an analysis of the computer printout by House Budget Committee Democrats."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:22 pm
Dooh Nibor Economics
June 1, 2004
By PAUL KRUGMAN

Last week The Washington Post got hold of an Office of
Management and Budget memo that directed federal agencies
to prepare for post-election cuts in programs that George
Bush has been touting on the campaign trail. These include
nutrition for women, infants and children; Head Start; and
homeland security. The numbers match those on a computer
printout leaked earlier this year - one that administration
officials claimed did not reflect policy.

Beyond the routine mendacity, the case of the leaked memo
points us to a larger truth: whatever they may say in
public, administration officials know that sustaining Mr.
Bush's tax cuts will require large cuts in popular
government programs. And for the vast majority of
Americans, the losses from these cuts will outweigh any
gains from lower taxes.

It has long been clear that the Bush administration's claim
that it can simultaneously pursue war, large tax cuts and a
"compassionate" agenda doesn't add up. Now we have direct
confirmation that the White House is engaged in bait and
switch, that it intends to pursue a not at all
compassionate agenda after this year's election.

That agenda is to impose Dooh Nibor economics - Robin Hood
in reverse. The end result of current policies will be a
large-scale transfer of income from the middle class to the
very affluent, in which about 80 percent of the population
will lose and the bulk of the gains will go to people with
incomes of more than $200,000 per year.

I can't back that assertion with official numbers, because
under Mr. Bush the Treasury Department has stopped
releasing information on the distribution of tax cuts by
income level. Estimates by the Urban Institute-Brookings
Institution Tax Policy Center, which now provides the
numbers the administration doesn't want you to know, reveal
why. This year, the average tax reduction per family due to
Bush-era cuts was $1,448. But this average reflects huge
cuts for a few affluent families, with most families
receiving much less (which helps explain why most people,
according to polls, don't believe their taxes have been
cut). In fact, the 257,000 taxpayers with incomes of more
than $1 million received a bigger combined tax cut than the
85 million taxpayers who make up the bottom 60 percent of
the population.

Still, won't most families gain something? No - because the
tax cuts must eventually be offset with spending cuts.

Three years ago George Bush claimed that he was cutting
taxes to return a budget surplus to the public. Instead, he
presided over a move to huge deficits. As a result, the
modest tax cuts received by the great majority of Americans
are, in a fundamental sense, fraudulent. It's as if someone
expected gratitude for giving you a gift, when he actually
bought it using your credit card.

The administration has not, of course, explained how it
intends to pay the bill. But unless taxes are increased
again, the answer will have to be severe program cuts,
which will fall mainly on Social Security, Medicare and
Medicaid - because that's where the bulk of the money is.

For most families, the losses from these cuts will far
outweigh any gain from lower taxes. My back-of-the-envelope
calculation suggests that 80 percent of all families will
end up worse off; the Center on Budget and Policy
Priorities will soon come out with a more careful, detailed
analysis that arrives at a similar conclusion. And the only
really big beneficiaries will be the wealthiest few percent
of the population.

Does Mr. Bush understand that the end result of his
policies will be to make most Americans worse off, while
enriching the already affluent? Who knows? But the
ideologues and political operatives behind his agenda know
exactly what they're doing.

Of course, voters would never support this agenda if they
understood it. That's why dishonesty - as illustrated by
the administration's consistent reliance on phony
accounting, and now by the business with the budget cut
memo - is such a central feature of the White House
political strategy.

Right now, it seems that the 2004 election will be a
referendum on Mr. Bush's calamitous foreign policy. But
something else is at stake: whether he and his party can
lock in the unassailable political position they need to
proceed with their pro-rich, anti-middle-class economic
strategy. And no, I'm not engaging in class warfare. They
are.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/01/opinion/01KRUG.html?ex=1087089946&ei=1&en=ead1839533e7482a

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:23 pm
The Washington Post analyses the ad season thus far ... and a damning overview it is. Read, read, read!

Some excerpts:


Quote:
Bush campaign accents the negative

Last Monday in Little Rock, Vice President Cheney said Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry "has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all" and said the senator from Massachusetts "promised to repeal most of the Bush tax cuts within his first 100 days in office."

On Tuesday, President Bush's campaign began airing an ad saying Kerry would scrap wiretaps that are needed to hunt terrorists.

The same day, the Bush campaign charged in a memo sent to reporters and through surrogates that Kerry wants to raise the gasoline tax by 50 cents.

On Wednesday and Thursday, as Kerry campaigned in Seattle, he was greeted by another Bush ad alleging that Kerry now opposes education changes that he supported in 2001.

The charges were all tough, serious -- and wrong, or at least highly misleading. Kerry did not question the war on terrorism, has proposed repealing tax cuts only for those earning more than $200,000, supports wiretaps, has not endorsed a 50-cent gasoline tax increase in 10 years, and continues to support the education changes, albeit with modifications.

Scholars and political strategists say the ferocious Bush assault on Kerry this spring has been extraordinary, both for the volume of attacks and for the liberties the president and his campaign have taken with the facts. [..]

Three-quarters of the ads aired by Bush's campaign have been attacks on Kerry. Bush so far has aired 49,050 negative ads in the top 100 markets, or 75 percent of his advertising. Kerry has run 13,336 negative ads -- or 27 percent of his total. The figures were compiled by The Washington Post using data from the Campaign Media Analysis Group of the top 100 U.S. markets. Both campaigns said the figures are accurate. [..]

Brown University professor Darrell West, author of a book on political advertising, said Bush's level of negative advertising is already higher than the levels reached in the 2000, 1996 and 1992 campaigns. And because campaigns typically become more negative as the election nears, "I'm anticipating it's going to be the most negative campaign ever," eclipsing 1988, West said. "If you compare the early stage of campaigns, virtually none of the early ads were negative, even in '88." [..]

Kerry, too, has made his own misleading statements and exaggerations. For example, he said in a speech last week about Iraq: "They have gone it alone when they should have assembled a whole team." That is not true. There are about 25,000 allied troops from several nations, particularly Britain, in Iraq. [..] Kerry also suggested several times last week that Bush opposed increasing spending on several homeland defense programs; in fact, Bush has proposed big increases in homeland security but opposed some Democratic attempts to increase spending even more in some areas. [..]

But Bush has outdone Kerry in the number of untruths, in part because Bush has leveled so many specific charges (and Kerry has such a lengthy voting record), but also because Kerry has learned from the troubles caused by Al Gore's misstatements in 2000. "The balance of misleading claims tips to Bush," Jamieson said, "in part because the Kerry team has been more careful." [..]

From the president and Cheney down to media aides stationed in every battleground state and volunteers who dress up like Flipper the flip-flopping dolphin at rallies, the Bush campaign relentlessly portrays Kerry as elitist, untrustworthy, liberal and a flip-flopper on major issues. [..] Sometimes the charges ring true. Last week, Kerry told NBC: "I'm for the Patriot Act, but I'm not for the Patriot Act the way they abuse the Constitution." That brought to mind Kerry's much-mocked contention in March on Iraq spending: "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it."

But often they distort Kerry's record and words [..].

One constant theme of the Bush campaign is that Kerry is "playing politics" with Iraq, terrorism and national security. Earlier this month, Bush-Cheney Chairman Marc Racicot told reporters in a conference call that Kerry suggested in a speech that 150,000 U.S. troops are "universally responsible" for the misdeeds of a few soldiers at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison -- a statement the candidate never made. In that one call, Racicot made at least three variations of this claim and the campaign cut off a reporter when he was challenged on it.

In early March, Bush charged that Kerry had proposed a $1.5 billion cut in the intelligence budget that would "gut the intelligence services." Kerry did propose such a cut in 1995, but it amounted to about 1 percent of the overall intelligence budget and was smaller than the $3.8 billion cut the Republican-led Congress approved for the same program Kerry was targeting. [..]

On March 30, the Bush team released an ad noting that Kerry "supported a 50-cent-a-gallon gas tax" and saying, "If Kerry's tax increase were law, the average family would pay $657 more a year." But Kerry opposes an increase in the gasoline tax. The ad is based on a 10-year-old newspaper quotation of Kerry but implies that the proposal is current.

Other Bush claims, though misleading, are rooted in facts. For example, Cheney's claim in almost every speech that Kerry "has voted some 350 times for higher taxes" includes any vote in which Kerry voted to leave taxes unchanged or supported a smaller tax cut than some favored. [..]

Scott Reed, who ran Robert J. Dole's presidential campaign that year, said the Bush campaign has little choice but to deliver a constant stream of such negative charges. With low poll numbers and a volatile situation in Iraq, Bush has more hope of tarnishing Kerry's image than promoting his own. [..]

The strategy was in full operation last week, beginning Monday in Arkansas. "Senator Kerry," Cheney said, "has questioned whether the war on terror is really a war at all. He said, quote, 'I don't want to use that terminology.' In his view, opposing terrorism is far less of a military operation and more of a law enforcement operation."

But Kerry did not say what Cheney attributes to him. The quote Cheney used came from a March interview with the New York Times, in which Kerry used the phrase "war on terror." When he said "I don't want to use that terminology," he was discussing the "economic transformation" of the Middle East -- not the war on terrorism. [..]


Article goes on with more examples still for quite a while ...
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 05:47 pm
It seems desperation is taking over the Bush campaign.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 06:05 pm
That's hardly a balance to 9 Dem candidates, MoveOn. org., Ted Kennedy and the media bashing and lying about Bush for months and months.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Jun, 2004 06:52 pm
Brand X, Sweeping accusations just doesn't cut it; please supply documentation support.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 08:48 am
Neither candidate is running a clean campaign so we are down to talking about who is dirtier?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 08:51 am
no matter who wins this contest, we the people lose. Perhaps it's time to think of electing a Liberal President.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 09:01 am
McG, True - both sides are playing dirty, but the Bush campaign has more money and exposure to lie. ;(
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 09:16 am
I would like to see candidates run on what they can do, but i would also consider it an injustice if past performance and failures were also not detailed for each candidate.

I think the left is just bitter that they couldn't afford a better candidate...
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 10:04 am
so we end up with Kerry and Kerry-Light in oppositon.
0 Replies
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 10:50 am
dyslexia wrote:
so we end up with Kerry and Kerry-Light in oppositon.


I could reverse that and say "Bush and Bush lite" but that would really be an insult to Bush. Kerry has maybe one inch of spine ---- all the rest is "self interest".

This is an example of his oratorical self fascination:

If ahm elected president ah will create ten million NEW jobs-------this is from a guy who has never been in business (business is what creates jobs) and who has been living at the "hog tough" of congress supplemented by the pocket change from two wealthy wives ever since he disgraced himself by calling all Vietnam vets murderers and war criminals.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 11:02 am
Forgetting everything Kerry did in his past--nobody's perfect--his misguided rhetoric, and neck-breaking changes of direction on foriegn policy are enough to legitimately stop voters in their tracks.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 11:14 am
it is not likely that I will not consider voting for either of the above.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jun, 2004 11:15 am
Before you look at Kerry, take a long look at the business track record of his opponent....

I hate to bring it down to a 'lesser of two evils' situation, but the fact remains that GWB's track record with businesses is pretty dismal. Not to mention the fact that in the four years he's been here, we've lost how many jobs?

You can criticize Kerry for the hypothetical mistakes he could make, or Bush for the ones he already has. Which argument do you think holds more water, hmm?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 12/23/2024 at 08:15:48