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Kerry v Bush: The Facts, the Campaigns and the Spin...

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2004 09:15 pm
Mesquite writes
Quote:
So by your way of thinking, if the bad guys turn out to be in your own party, then the proper thing to do is look the other way?


For the life of me I can't figure out what yhou mean with this one. Smile
My point was, Kerry can't list that particular activity on his resume, and he hasn't listed it, because he caught (and thereby ticked off) only Democrats with the activity. It's sort of funny when you think about it.

And so far I'm not seeing folks coming up with all these really good reasons to vote for Kerry, and I don't think Bush-bashing is going to get the job done for you since it's all been said....and said....and said....and more and more people don't believe you anymore or else they consider it irrelevent.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2004 09:21 pm
Quote:
and more and more people don't believe you anymore or else they consider it irrelevent.


Or they're just really are that stupid and gullible to believe the utter BS being dished out by the rightwingers.

And that's very sad...
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Sep, 2004 10:25 pm
No Dookie it is more than that. I doubt Bush will go down in history as one of the greatest but he could if the next four years is much better than the first. He has made mistakes as I have mentioned and he has supported policies that I do not. But taken as a whole, he has proven to be quite honest, trustworthy to stick with his convictions, and I support more policies that he supports than those I disapprove. He has proven to me that he doesn't say things just because they're what voters want to hear. These are qualities I value in a president. Kerry doesn't have them, nor has Kerry shown me any clear conviction he holds about anything other than the self-promotion of John Kerry. And I think that's pretty sad.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 04:39 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Nimh, I will ignore your obvious sarcasm and invite you to help my young friend out and come up with something complimentary about Kerry he could use for his class.

I believe Mesquite already neatly did my work - and within 20 minutes after your posting, too. Would those really have been such tough Google keys to come up with, your personal opinions aside?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 09:46 am
And Nimh I have already explained why these don't show up on Kerry's resume and why he isn't using them as 'evidence' for why he's a good guy and suited to be president. They were written early on by his campaign creative staff but the issues themselves have so many negatives attached, he can't use them effectively in his campaign. We did find most of this stuff and my young friend quickly and prudently realized how savagely any opponent would rip them apart. You see we Google everything, not just the stuff that sounds good if you ignore all the rest.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 01:48 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
And Nimh I have already explained why these don't show up on Kerry's resume and why he isn't using them as 'evidence' for why he's a good guy and suited to be president.

Yep, but that wasnt the question, was it? Wasn't the assignment to find "something of substance to commend Kerry for over the last several decades", rather than "something Kerry considers strategically advantageous to use as evidence in his campaign"? He might well have done some great things that, for strategic reasons, he chooses not to play up - I wouldn't be surprised at all, in fact.

Foxfyre wrote:
They were written early on by his campaign creative staff but the issues themselves have so many negatives attached, he can't use them effectively in his campaign. We did find most of this stuff and my young friend quickly and prudently realized how savagely any opponent would rip them apart. You see we Google everything, not just the stuff that sounds good if you ignore all the rest.

Yeah yeah. The assignment, in your own words, was to find "something of substance to commend Kerry for over the last several decades". Working side-by-side with John McCain on investigating POW/MIA issues and being commended for that by McCain surely is something that many, if not most Americans would find commendable - even if you don't think so.

Same with the Iran/Contra investigations. You might think of Oliver North as a good guy or something, but that's surely not how most Americans see it - I dont think there's many "negatives attached" to having outed the Iran/Contra scandal, to most mainstream Americans. So it should have been easy enough to bring up as "something to commend Kerry for" - if you consider the assignment to be about what is generally considered good rather than what you, personally, consider good. That's where my swipe at teaching the young ones about applying objectivity came from.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 01:55 pm
Let's not forget the BCCI scandal as well:

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/

What planet are you living on, Fox?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 01:57 pm
No Nimh, maybe I didn't make it clear, but the assignment was to find something to commend Kerry for that qualified him to be President of the United States. There probably is no soul living on earth that has not done something commendable sometime in his lifetime. I don't know anybody who thinks working on the POW/MIA issue was a bad thing, but there is no evidence anywhere that Kerry exercised any leadership there. As far as the Ollie North investigation, that was something he did on his own--it was an unauthorized investigation--and he came up empty.

My young friend said it before I could: this stuff reinforces Kerry's image as either a sheep or a loose cannon. I need something more current, more substantive. I (as an old debate coach) could not disagree. His only options were either to make up stuff and hope he didn't get caught or go with untenable facts. He opted to tell his teacher that he was unable to find enough to take Kerry's side in a classroom debate. He has presented his research material, however, and is waiting for his grade.
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Joe Republican
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:02 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
No Dookie it is more than that. I doubt Bush will go down in history as one of the greatest but he could if the next four years is much better than the first. He has made mistakes as I have mentioned and he has supported policies that I do not. But taken as a whole, he has proven to be quite honest, trustworthy to stick with his convictions, and I support more policies that he supports than those I disapprove. He has proven to me that he doesn't say things just because they're what voters want to hear. These are qualities I value in a president. Kerry doesn't have them, nor has Kerry shown me any clear conviction he holds about anything other than the self-promotion of John Kerry. And I think that's pretty sad.


Is the sky Blue in your world? Are you serious, bus MAY go down as one of the greatest presidents??? What planet do you live on?

Bush had made mistakes of MONUMENTAL proportions!!!

He has gone to war under FALSE PRETENSES!!! This isn't a fable, but outright fact. Bush isn't honest, he's outright deceitful and untrustworthy. Why do you think the entire civilized world hates us? It's because Bush is dishonest, he lied and his actions went unnoticed by the Americans. He used fear to perpetuate a heightened paranoia in American society, called any questioning to his radical agenda unAmerican and castigated anyone who would dare challenge him on anything.

He has been sitting president in the largest security failure in American history, he has takes a $250Billion dollar budget and turned it into a $500 Billion deficit, he has turned all traditional allies against America, he has ignored the proliferation of nuclear buildup in both Iran and North Korea and he has committed an act of treason against this country by not only profiting from war, but also outing the name of an undercover CIA operative when her husband called Bush on his bogus claims put in his SOTU address. Do I need to go on, or can I stop now.

Greatest president ever?!??!? WTF are you people on? Open your eyes to see what is happening with this country before you go sprouting out nonsense like this. Yea, and I bet you think Nixon was an honest and truthful guy too. Jeffrey Dalmer, he only had an eating disorder huh, Jack the Ripper? he had a preponderance to facilitate the dexterous use of a knife.

Get real America and get a clue, open up your eyes.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:05 pm
Fox:

You are far from clear. But the last four years of Bush hell IS clear, which kinda makes your argument pretty moot.

Actually, you're about as clear as this dim bulb in the Oval Office:

http://www.sfgate.com/chronicle/pictures/2004/09/29/092904-600x472-meyercartoon.gif
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:28 pm
"...the last four years of Bush hell IS clear"

For who, the terrorists and Saddam?

Certainly not for this citizen and about half the country who agree with me.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:34 pm
I'm glad that at least half--I suspect well over half--of Americans don't operate out of the leftwing Democrat playbook, Larry. I'll give Dookie credit for staying on point no matter how wrong I think she is, and I figure JP up there probably would too.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:36 pm
Larry434:

You're not paying attention. The terrorists are THRIVING in Iraq. How is that hell for them? It IS hell, though, for the poor innocent Iraqi citizens who McGentrix so dearly loves, and who are once again victims to a failed Bush foreign policy.

Just like Bush 41.
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Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 02:38 pm
I am not a "she," Foxfyre. But I found out recently that you are.

And to be clear, I am NOT a Democrat, but an independent, so perhaps we can put your presumptive punditry to rest here once and for all.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 03:43 pm
Talking Points notes that "a good ground game -- at least the voter registration part of it -- can be hobbled mightily if opposing elected officials find ways to disqualify or throw out lots of new voter registration applications, as they seem to be doing in Ohio." What's up?

Dayton for Kerry has good news: the danger has already been averted. But the (Republican) Secretary of State had done his best to thwart the voter registration drive underway in Ohio, which, as the NYT reported recently, has brought in record numbers of new registrations ... in Democratic-leaning districts.

Quote:
This just in... Secretary of State Blackwell has backed off his earlier position to require voter registrations to be printed on 80# paper. This means registration forms printed from the internet, in newspapers, etc. will be considered valid and will be processed. This reversal is the result of direct pressure from citizens and the media after this decision was brought to light

What was the hullaballoo about? Blackwell had ordered county election officials to accept registration forms only if "they were printed on "80-pound text paper," a heavy, cardlike stock". The Columbus Dispatch reports:

Quote:
Ohio Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell yesterday issued a revised directive to county election officials telling them to accept voter-registration forms regardless of the weight of the paper on which they are printed.

The "clarification" was a reversal from Blackwell's Sept. 7 directive telling election officials in Ohio's 88 counties that they should not accept registration forms unless they were printed on "80-pound text paper," a heavy, cardlike stock. [..]

The Dispatch reported Tuesday that after Blackwell's initial directive, some county boards stopped accepting voterregistration applications printed on flimsier paper. Others were taping lightweight forms to heavier paper. And many, including Franklin County, had ignored Blackwell and continued accepting all otherwise-valid applications.

With Ohio's voter-registration deadline Monday, the confusion came during the final phase of a massive effort to sign up new voters and drew criticism from across the nation. [..]

It's unclear how many application forms have been rejected, but in Ohio, a key state in a tight presidential race, election officials say even a few thousand could affect the outcome.

In Franklin County alone, there are more than 90,000 new voters this year - 10 percent of the county's electorate. [..]

Dan Trevas, a spokesman for the Ohio Democratic Party, noted that Blackwell's own office has distributed registration forms that fail to meet his own requirements.

Some picked up this past spring by the Worthington Area Democratic Club are printed on 60-pound paper, according to John Stopa, a lawyer and club member.

And an election board official who asked not to be identified said forms his office obtained from Blackwell were printed on 70-pound paper.

LoParo said the secretary of state's forms are always on the prescribed paper.

"It's 80-pound text weight," he said. "We've been doing this for 10 years."
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 03:48 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Larry434:

You're not paying attention. The terrorists are THRIVING in Iraq. How is that hell for them? It IS hell, though, for the poor innocent Iraqi citizens who McGentrix so dearly loves, and who are once again victims to a failed Bush foreign policy.

Just like Bush 41.



"the poor innocent Iraqi citizens" are victims of the "thriving" terrorists you celebrate, dookie...not Bush who has his military attacking and killing them where they live, instead of in your backyard.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 03:54 pm
Larry434:

I am not celebrating, you misguided fool. As I have already described those poor innocent Iraqi citizens as living in this new kind of hell, how could someone as presumably as intelligent as yourself get that so wrong?

Lest you forget, the U.S. military are subsequently killing innocent Iraqi citizens as well. It is part and parcel of the quagmire Bush has created, at the cost of billions of taxpayer dollars.

Like I said, you just haven't been paying attention.
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 03:56 pm
I am not celebrating, you misguided fool.

That personal slur won't remain in your post long, I predict, dookie.

The moderators here don't tolerate such nonsense. This ain't abuzz you know.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 04:00 pm
Larry434:

I've heard much worse already here. But let's be clear; I do NOT celebrate what is taking place in Iraq, despite the fact that you argue to the contrary.

I find that statement MUCH more insulting than you misguided fool.

I find it morally offensive.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Sep, 2004 04:02 pm
Quote:
Despite Bush Flip-Flops, Kerry Gets Label

In 2000, Bush said he would include carbon dioxide on a list of air pollutants requiring federal oversight, a stand he abandoned within weeks of taking office. A month after the Sept. 11 attacks, Bush's spokesman said the president believed a homeland security department that Democrats proposed was "just not necessary." A year after that, Bush had switched course and was lashing some Democrats for not moving quickly enough to approve the agency.

While Bush professes himself a strong free-trader, most other free-trade proponents said he bent on principle in March 2002 when he ordered tariffs on imported steel -- a move that resonated politically in electorally important industrial states such as Pennsylvania. Facing an escalating global trade dispute, he lifted the tariffs at the end of last year.

In some cases, Democrats say, Bush's position stays the same even as his reasons flip. The most famous examples involve taxes and Iraq. He supported tax cuts in 2000 because he said they were affordable in a time of large government surpluses, and once in power he supported them amid rising deficits because he said the economy needed stimulation. The president's principal rationale for the Iraq invasion was to end Baghdad's suspected mass-weapons program and links to international terrorism. In the absence of compelling evidence of these, the main post-invasion rationale has been to rescue Iraq from a tyrant and support democracy in the greater Middle East.

Iraq, however, has been the source of the most damaging charges of equivocation and wind-shifting against Kerry. The Massachusetts senator voted for the Iraq war in October 2002, but a year later voted against Bush's request for $87 billion for military and reconstruction spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. The latter vote came when former Vermont governor Howard Dean's antiwar candidacy was ascendant. The vote may have been wise politics at the time, but came with a high price -- lending an aura of plausibility to the subsequent charges by Bush that Kerry is motivated by opportunism.

Kerry's statements have compounded the damage. In September 2003, he said at a Democratic debate, "We should not send more American troops" to Iraq. "That would be the worst thing." In April, he said on NBC's "Meet the Press" that "if it requires more troops . . . that's what you have to do." In August, he told ABC's "This Week" that if elected, "I will have significant, enormous reduction in the level of troops." This week, he said that, as president, he would not have launched an invasion if he had known that there was not clear evidence of weapons of mass destruction or ties to al Qaeda, though last month he said, knowing these things, he still would have voted to give Bush congressional authority to wage the Iraq war.

Polls make clear the extent to which Bush's flip-flop charge has stuck. A poll released last week by Kohut's Pew Center showed that 53 percent of voters believe Kerry "changes his mind too much." [..] Stevens, who has been studying Kerry since advising then-Massachusetts Gov. William H. Weld (R) in an unsuccessful attempt to defeat the senator in 1996, said Kerry's very manner exacerbates the flip-flop impression: "He says these things with great condescension, [suggesting]: 'If only you were as smart as I and understand this that these issues are too complicated to have a consistent position.' . . .
0 Replies
 
 

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