Eye On Israel/Palestine

Excellent point.
Please show, demonstrate, or otherwise deliniate how "Israel transcended its borders assigned by the world community in 1967."



There are no 1967 borders.
There aren't even any 1948 borders.
Or 1973 or 1990 or any year you'd care to claim.

With an answer like that I won't waste my time discussing the subject with you. Let it end as we agree to disagree.

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- Palestine Liberation Organization chairman Mahmoud Abbas escaped injury on Sunday after masked gunmen opened fire near him inside a tent where people were mourning Yasser Arafat.

Two Abbas bodyguards were killed, Gaza hospital sources said. Witnesses and medical sources said at least 10 people were injured in the shooting.

The incident began when members of a rival clan within Arafat's Fatah Palestinian nationalist movement entered the tent and opened fire near Abbas and his security guards, witnesses said. The confrontation lasted about five minutes.

Asked by Ramattan TV if he thought he was a target of the shooters, Abbas said, "It is not a political or personal thing. It is something that just happened."

Abbas also said that the tent was crowded and emotions were high. He said the men were pointing their weapons up and shooting into the air,

Please show, demonstrate, or otherwise deliniate how "Israel transcended its borders assigned by the world community in 1967."

Please include the documents or statements by the world community that outlined these mythical borders.

Western Submarine Slipped Into Israeli Waters

A submarine from a Western country slipped into Israeli waters last week on a spy mission, evading missile boats scrambled to intercept it, military sources said on Monday.

The sources did not name the country that sent the submarine, which penetrated three miles into territorial waters off Israel's northern Mediterranean coast, or say how long the vessel had been in the area.

The incident occurred on November 10, three days after the Lebanese Hizbollah guerrilla group breached Israeli air defenses by sending an unmanned spy plane over the northern city of Nahariya.

Iran-backed Hizbollah said such drones could be armed in the future to attack targets inside the Jewish state. There was no apparent connection with the submarine incident.

"It was a Western submarine which came seeking intelligence information," one military source said. "Once it was identified as such, missile boats were called in but it managed to escape."

Yuval Shteinitz, chairman of parliament's foreign affairs and defense committee, praised the navy for discovering the submarine following the air force's failure to detect the drone.

Shteinitz said the Israeli gunboats took action that signaled to the submarine that it was in their sights and the unidentified vessel left the coastal area.

"The submarine...was detected immediately with its entry into territorial waters and then was gotten rid of," he said.

Israel's territorial waters stretch 12 to 14 nautical miles off of its Mediterranean coast.

Israeli radio reports said the incident prompted the navy to place all of its ships and radar systems on high alert, and that similar incidents occurred in the past but were not publicized.

Israeli security sources said it was unlikely the submarine had entered Israeli waters by accident.
"Drifting across the border by accident would run against every rule of seamanship, especially when it comes to the skills demanded of a submarine crew," one of the sources said.

"The fact we detected them also showed that this submarine's main task -- covert operations -- failed."

Israel has several Dolphin-class submarines that are said to travel as far as North Africa and the Gulf to monitor enemy capabilities. The navy acts primarily as Israel's coast guard, intercepting attempted infiltrations from Lebanon and Gaza.

Responding navy missile boats and Dabur multi-mission patrol crafts were able to chase the submarine out of Israeli territory. However, the craft managed to evade identification of its type and registry.

As of now, the exact source of the submarine is unknown, but an IDF official told Ynet that the submarine was of "Western" origin and was not hostile in nature. Security officials explain it could have been a maritime research vessel or other possibilities. Furthermore, the military is unaware of submarines in the possession of terrorist groups.

Latest: Palestinian militants open fire in a Gaza mourning tent, killing at least one.

Moishe3rd wrote:

Excellent point.
Please show, demonstrate, or otherwise deliniate how "Israel transcended its borders assigned by the world community in 1967."



There are no 1967 borders.
There aren't even any 1948 borders.
Or 1973 or 1990 or any year you'd care to claim.

Seems like I'm agreeing with au1929 again

au1929 wrote:

With an answer like that I won't waste my time discussing the subject with you. Let it end as we agree to disagree.

Moishe3rd wrote:

Please show, demonstrate, or otherwise deliniate how "Israel transcended its borders assigned by the world community in 1967."

Please include the documents or statements by the world community that outlined these mythical borders.

You should do your homework yourself. You might want to try the website of the UN for a start. Look for resolutions 181 and 242.

U.N. SECURITY COUNCIL RESOLUTION 242
NOVEMBER 22, 1967

The Security Council,

Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,

Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,

Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; Affirms further the necessity

For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;

For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;

For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;
Requests the Secretary General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;

Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.

THE PLO´S PHASED PLAN

Political Programme

Adopted at the 12th Session of the Palestinian National Council Cairo, June 9, 1974

Text of the Phased Plan resolution:

The Palestinian National Council:

On the basis of the Palestinian National Charter and the Political Programme drawn up at the eleventh session, held from January 6-12, 1973; and from its belief that it is impossible for a permanent and just peace to be established in the area unless our Palestinian people recover all their national rights and, first and foremost, their rights to return and to self-determination on the whole of the soil of their homeland; and in the light of a study of the new political circumstances that have come into existence in the period between the Council's last and present sessions, resolves the following:

1.To reaffirm the Palestine Liberation Organization's previous attitude to Resolution 242, which obliterates the national right of our people and deals with the cause of our people as a problem of refugees. The Council therefore refuses to have anything to do with this resolution at any level, Arab or international, including the Geneva Conference.

This latest simplistic view is demonstrated by your belief that UN resolutions 181 or 242 delineate a border for Israel that has anything to do with a world community decision or pre-1967 armistice lines.
You are living in a fantasy.

Part II. - Boundaries

A. THE ARAB STATE

The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier of the Lebanon from Ras en Naqura to a point north of Saliha. From there the boundary proceeds southwards, leaving the built-up area of Saliha in the Arab State [...]

B. THE JEWISH STATE

The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Trans-jordan [...]

Quoting UN Resolution 181
Quote:
Part II. - Boundaries
A. THE ARAB STATE
The area of the Arab State in Western Galilee is bounded on the west by the Mediterranean and on the north by the frontier of the Lebanon from Ras en Naqura to a point north of Saliha. From there the boundary proceeds southwards, leaving the built-up area of Saliha in the Arab State [...]
B. THE JEWISH STATE
The north-eastern sector of the Jewish State (Eastern Galilee) is bounded on the north and west by the Lebanese frontier and on the east by the frontiers of Syria and Trans-jordan [...]
So what is that other than an assigment of borders to Israel by the international community? There's nothing "mythical" about those borders.

The Security Council consider, if circumstances during the transitional period require such consideration, whether the situation in Palestine constitutes a threat to the peace. If it decides that such a threat exists, and in order to maintain international peace and security, the Security Council should supplement the authorization of the General Assembly by taking measures, under Articles 39 and 41 of the Charter, to empower the United Nations Commission, as provided in this resolution, to exercise in Palestine the functions which are assigned to it by this resolution;

The Security Council determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution;

Article 39
The Security Council shall determine the existence of any threat to the peace, breach of the peace, or act of aggression and shall make recommendations, or decide what measures shall be taken in accordance with Articles 4 and 42, to maintain or restore international peace and security.

Article 4
1. Membership in the United Nations is open to a other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.

2. The admission of any such state to membership in the Nations will be effected by a decision of the General Assembly upon the recommendation of the Security Council.

Article 42
Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.

You are right, Res. 242 doesn't assign borders but calls for Israel to pull back from conquered territories - presupposing borders set by UN-Security Council Resolutions in 1949.

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;

Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force

To reaffirm the Palestine Liberation Organization's previous attitude to Resolution 242, which obliterates the national right of our people and deals with the cause of our people as a problem of refugees. The Council therefore refuses to have anything to do with this resolution at any level, Arab or international, including the Geneva Conference.

i find it hard to understand why people keep refering to them as "palestinians"
theyre all arabs.

they claim to have been in the area as paletinians for tim immemorial but the area was named palestine by the romans.

the hebrews lived in that area for years before so you would think they have a more legitimate claim on the area

2nd UPDATE:Israel Army Mistakenly Kills 3 Egyptian Police



(Updates an item published at 0815 GMT with Egyptian comment.)

JERUSALEM (AP)--Israeli troops killed Egyptian policemen mistaken for Palestinian militants along the Gaza-Egypt border early Thursday, in what the army called a "professional and operational" mishap.

Israel immediately apologized and opened an investigation into the incident, which threatens to increase tensions between the two countries. The former enemies signed a peace agreement in 1979 but often have had shaky relations.

Egypt said the men were members of the Central Security Forces, a paramilitary unit run by the Interior Ministry. Cabinet spokesman Magdy Rady said Egypt was waiting for more information from Israel, but "until now, we see it as a mistake."

The timing of the incident is especially sensitive because Israel wants Egypt to help secure the Gaza Strip following a planned withdrawal next year from the coastal area. Egypt has been mediating between Israel and the Palestinians ahead of the withdrawal.

Thursday's incident occurred along the "Philadelphi Road," a volatile patrol road along the Gaza-Egypt border. Israeli troops and Palestinian militants often battle in the area, where Palestinians smuggle weapons through tunnels into the Gaza Strip.

Israel Radio reported that the Egyptian policemen were part of a unit responsible for preventing arms and drug smuggling across the border. Earlier reports said identified the Egyptians killed as soldiers.

The Israeli army said its soldiers identified three Palestinian militants planting a bomb in the area. The outpost ordered troops in a tank to fire at the militants, but they mistakenly fired on the Egyptian policemen, who happened to be in the area at the time, the army said.

"The army has opened a thorough and deep investigation into the incident," an army statement said.

The army said the area is prone to militant activity and infiltration attempts. It expressed regret for killing the Egyptians and said it offered to help in anyway possible.

"It's in a very delicate part of the border where we've had problems with terrorist infiltrations in the past," Foreign Ministry spokesman Mark Regev said.

"If Egyptians were hit then we regret it. This was not our intention. We want good cooperative relations with Egypt...and if Egyptians were hurt than our thoughts go out to them and their families and the Egyptian people," Regev added.

Israel apologizes to Cairo

Herb Keinon and Margot Dudkevitch, THE JERUSALEM POST
[Updated Nov. 19, 2004 0:37]
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon phoned Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak on Thursday and apologized for the IDF's accidental killing of three Egyptian policemen on the Israeli-Egyptian border.

A tank crew mistook the three Egyptians for armed terrorists who had been spotted heading toward the border fence, the IDF said.

According to a statement by the Prime Minister's Office, Sharon told Mubarak the incident was an accident, and he promised the army would investigate how it occurred and pass the findings on to Egypt. Sharon said Israel is willing to assist Egypt in any way possible concerning this matter.

Mubarak, according to the Prime Minister's Office, thanked Sharon for the call and said Egypt accepts the apology and realizes that the shooting was accidental.

The Egyptian Foreign Ministry, however, issued a statement that "condemns and strongly protests this regrettable incident." In the statement, Foreign Minister Ahmed Abul Gheit - who is slated to visit Israel on Wednesday with Egyptian Intelligence chief Omar Suleiman - said Egypt demands that Israel "conduct an immediate, thorough, and comprehensive investigation into the circumstances that led to this incident, and present an explanation."

The IDF tank was dispatched in pursuit of three armed men who had been spotted earlier heading to the border from Rafah. The crew and the company commander both confirmed the sighting, and permission to shoot was received by Col. Avi Peled, the south Gaza district commander, who consulted with the Gaza divisional commander. Only then was a shell fired.

The shell missed and the terrorists fled back into Rafah, leaving behind bags containing bombs. Only then did it become apparent that because of heavy fog, the company commander had focused on the fence bordering Rafah and the tank crew had mistakenly fired at the Egyptian side of the border, some 200 meters away.

The three victims were identified as Hani Ali Sobhi, Amer Abu Bakr Amer, and Muhammad Abdel Fatah Ali, members of the Egyptian Interior Ministry's security forces deployed along the border.

A statement issued by the IDF Spokesman described the incident as "an operational and professional foul-up."

At a briefing with reporters in Tel Aviv, OC Southern Command Maj.-Gen. Dan Harel said findings were still preliminary; officials were unable to reach the site as the Philadelphi Route had been closed until the bombs left by the terrorists were defused.

The incident occurred at 1 a.m., and despite the use of night-vision equipment the border fence is not clearly defined, said Harel. The tank crew and the company commander engaged in a 40-minute dialogue to ascertain that the three were the terrorists, he said.

Egyptian police usually patrol in pairs, but this time there were three and this misled the soldiers into thinking they were the terrorists, said Harel.

The incident should be viewed as one in a series of incidents that occur in the Southern Command area daily, he said. "The Philadelphi Route is a war zone, the hottest battle area in the region, and accounts for 30 percent of all the incidents in the West Bank and Gaza," said Harel.

He described coordination with the Egyptians as good, noting that dialogue is carried out by the district coordinating office. "Up until now we have been successful," he said.

Zvi Mazel, who served as Israel's ambassador to Egypt from 1996 to 2001, told The Jerusalem Post he doesn't believe the incident will have any long-term consequences for Israeli-Egyptian ties or keep Egypt from playing a security role after Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip.

"I don't think this will impact on Egyptian strategy, since they know it is in their interest for the border to stay quiet so there is not a flow of Islamic radicalism from there to Cairo," he said. "The Egyptian military undoubtedly understands this was a mistake and that these things happen. The prime minister dealt with this in the proper manner by calling Mubarak."

Mazel said the incident is likely to lead to better coordination between the IDF and Egyptian security forces in the area.

Mazel said although "official Egypt" will likely understand that the killings were accidental, the Egyptian press is likely to weave all types of conspiracy theories around it.

"That is our problem - they will blow it up, and that's a shame. They blame Israel for everything, and this has a cumulative effect," he said.

The three Egyptians were killed in an area where, under the 1979 Camp David peace accord, Egypt is allowed to deploy lightly armed police, but not soldiers.

Israel and Egypt are currently engaged in negotiations on the matter, with the hope that letters will be exchanged in the near future permitting the Egyptians to deploy soldiers who are better equipped to combat arms smuggling along the border. Israeli diplomatic officials said the two sides are currently negotiating what type of weaponry the Egyptian troops could introduce into the area.

Suleiman told US congressmen during a meeting in Washington in October that Egypt hopes to deploy troops along the border by the beginning of 2005.

The exchange of letters would preclude reopening the Israeli-Egyptian peace agreement, which is undesirable due to concern that if one article is changed, there will be demands to alter other sections as well.

During the summer, the two sides were talking about introducing between 100 and 130 border patrolmen on the Egyptian side.

Since the beginning of October, 10 bombs have been placed near IDF troops by Palestinians along the Philadelphi Route near Rafah. On October 18, in the same area, two terrorists were shot and killed while attempting to place a bomb near soldiers there.

Deputy Defense Minister Ze'ev Boim said that while he was not familiar with all the details, it was "a regrettable incident with a grave outcome." Speaking on Israel Radio in the morning, Boim said that at Israel's request, the Egyptian army had beefed up its presence in the area bordering Rafah to prevent weapons from being smuggled into Israel.

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz, who is in Rome meeting with senior government officials, telephoned Egyptian Defense Minister Hussein Tantawi and expressed his regrets over the incident. Mofaz also promised that a thorough and in-depth investigation would be carried out and that he will personally inform Tantawi of the outcome.