Eye On Israel/Palestine

Meanwhile, in the Hague, at the World Court, the proceedings do not seem to be going in Israels favor:

Quote:

Israel Faces More Condemnation at World Court

By Matt Spetalnick

THE HAGUE (Reuters) - Israel faced a second day of condemnation at the World Court Tuesday over its West Bank barrier but Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) dismissed the hearings as an "international circus" and vowed to keep building fences.

Cuba and Indonesia, whose own human rights records have come under international criticism, joined Jordan and other countries in backing the Palestinians' case against the barrier Israel is erecting in and around occupied territory.

Israel has stayed away from the hearings that began on Monday, disputing the court's right to rule on the case.

"(This is) a campaign of hypocrisy currently being staged against Israel in the international circus in The Hague (news - web sites)," Sharon said in an interview with the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth. "I will build the security fence and will complete it."

At his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah, Palestinian President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites) voiced confidence that the World Court would reach the "right decision."

Israel says it needs the vast array of fences, walls and trenches to keep out Palestinian suicide bombers. Palestinians, who have asked the U.N. tribunal to declare the structure illegal, calling it a land-grab to deny them a viable state.

The United States and European Union (news - web sites) have shunned the hearings despite criticizing the barrier's route. They say the court's involvement could harm Middle East peacemaking efforts.

The court's ruling will not be binding. But it could influence world opinion and the Palestinians hope it could pave the way for international sanctions against Israel.

In front of the court's Peace Palace building, about 150 pro-Israeli demonstrators, some wrapped in Israeli flags, sang peace songs beside the skeleton of a Jerusalem bus in which a Palestinian suicide bomber killed 11 people last month.

In the West Bank, Israeli forces wounded 10 Palestinians protesting against an expansion of the barrier, witnesses said.

Some of the nations speaking out against Israel's human rights record may be hypocrites, but that doesn't take away from the rightness of their message. The barrier is illegal and immoral. The road to peace begins with an unconditional Israeli withdrawel from all of the occupied territories.

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IZ
I try to keep out of these discussions. However, I disagree with you. The road to peace is a two way street. The Palestinian thugs who carry out the homicide bombings must be stopped by the PA. The fence after all is a product of those bombings. I should add IMO the PA's and the rest of the Moslem world's goal is not peace but the destruction of the state of Israel. As for the world court what can you expect when being judged by your enemies. Terrorism will have it's victory.

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au1929: The point is not that Israel has not the right to defend itself - of course it should be able to defend itself - but the fence that now is being build is against international law. Of course you may build a fence to keep terrorism out, but that must happen on your OWN land. With this fence on the West Bank: 1) at least 10% of the Palestinian Territory comes now inside Israel; 2) 2.000 Palestinian farmers lose their land or have to give away a piece of it. In some cases, Israeli compensation is being offered, and when you reject it you have nothing. This can be compared to when your neighbor occupies your garden and says 'you will not get it back, but I will give you money for it'. Sounds a bit strange. Not in all cases btw financial compensation is being offered. 3) A lot of Palestinian villages and towns are being cut off from the rest of the Palestinian Territory. The breakdown of the eight kilometer long fence IronLionZion spoke of is a good sign, but there are still a lot of towns, villages and farmland which are cut off from the rest of the Palestinian Territory. 4) 17 of the 25 major waterresources in the PT will be inside Israel, and no alternative is being offered by the Israeli government. 5) for thousands of Palestinians it will become very hard to go to work or school, for there will be more roadblocks and more trespasses.
The fence between the Gaza Strip and Israel proved to be effective, thats true. But the way the fence is being build on the West Bank will have a lot of bad consequences for the Palestinians living there. Of course the Palestinian Authority should do something about the ongoing terrorist actions. It is corrupt, Arafat even approves of the suicidebombings (by saying things like "it is an honor to die as a suicidebomber, to become a martyr" and by honoring terrorists), so it is absolutely not only Israel who is doing bad things here. But now, the case about the fence which is being build is the topic of discussion. Although I doubt the motives of some - mostly Muslim - countries in the International Court, I think the majority just wants the rights of the Palestinians being secured, and not being crushed by Israel.
And it is also the point whether the fence will work. In Gaza, for example, missiles were shot over the fence (though creating few damage), and more important, the Palestinians are getting more and more frustrated. By every kilometer of the fence being build, more Palestinians are finding their only way of living the way of violence and terrorism.

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au1929 wrote:

IZ
I try to keep out of these discussions. However, I disagree with you. The road to peace is a two way street. The Palestinian thugs who carry out the homicide bombings must be stopped by the PA. The fence after all is a product of those bombings. I should add IMO the PA's and the rest of the Moslem world's goal is not peace but the destruction of the state of Israel. As for the world court what can you expect when being judged by your enemies. Terrorism will have it's victory.

The fundamental problem I see in your reasoning is that it works both ways. You say that "the fence is a product of those bombings" and that Israel has a right to defend itself. However, one could just as easily make the argument that the Palestinian actions are a "product of," or response to, Israel's unlawfull and aggressive actions.

Israel is not going to achieve anything by upping the ante in this tit-for-tat war of epic magnitude.

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IZ
What were the aggressive acts before the start of the Intefada [sp]? The fact is they were better off than most in the Mid East. Regarding the tit for tat I agree nothing good can come of it. But consider, the outrage in the US if Bush had not gone after Al Qeada. It would have been unthinkable. The Israeli's suffer repeated 9/11's it is unthinkable that they not retaliate. The wonder is that the response wasn't American style. You can imagine what that would be.
It takes two to tango at the present moment it is my opinion that the Palestinians do not want to come to the dance.

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Take a bow George.

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I haven't updated this thread in a while. Recent developments:

1. In late February, The World Court ended its hearing after three days. Its 15 judges are expected to rule on the legality of the Israeli barrier withen months. Their decision is non-binding, however, it carries a hefty weight of world opinion.

2. In mid-March, the Israeli Supreme Court ordered a halt to the construction of an especially controversial 25 km stretch of the barrier. It plans to hear complaints from eight Palestinian villages before issuing its ruling.

3. And, of course, we have the assassination of the revered Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin, via a helicopter missle strike that also killed several bystanders.

Palestinians saw the assassination as an escalation of the conflict. Hamas vowed to launch unprecedented attacks against Israel. In a significant move, Hamas, for the first time, blamed the United States by claiming American support made the killing possible.

Predicatably, Kofi Annam spoke out against the assassination. Even more predicatably, the Bush Administration, via Condi Rice, managed to straddle the issue and avoid taking any stand whatsoever.

Quote:

Israel Kills Hamas Founder in Airstrike
Mon Mar 22, 2:18 PM ET

By IBRAHIM BARZAK, Associated Press Writer

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israel killed Hamas founder Ahmed Yassin in a helicopter missile strike outside a Gaza City mosque Monday, prompting threats of unprecedented revenge by Palestinian militants against Israel and the United States.

Yassin was the most prominent Palestinian leader killed by Israel in more than three years of fighting, and his assassination was seen as a major escalation.

More than 200,000 Palestinians, some carrying billowing green Hamas flags, flooded the streets for the funeral procession, the largest gathering in Gaza City in recent memory. Thousands also took to the streets in the West Bank.

Mourners jostled to touch Yassin's flag-draped coffin, and women ululated and threw flowers and candy. Two Israeli helicopters flew above, and the sky was blackened from the smoke of tires set ablaze in the streets by protesting Palestinians.

At the cemetery, Yassin's body was carried between two rows of 200 militants armed with anti-tank missiles and machine guns.

"Words cannot describe the emotion of anger and hate inside our hearts," said Hamas official Ismail Haniyeh, a close associate of Yassin.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) called Yassin the "mastermind of Palestinian terror" and a "mass murderer who is among Israel's greatest enemies."

Sharon said Israel will press ahead with its war on terror, signaling more targeted attacks and raids. "The war against terror has not ended and will continue day after day, everywhere," he said.

In addition to Yassin, 12 Palestinians were killed Monday, seven in the airstrike, four in clashes with Israeli troops and one while handling explosives.

U.S. national security adviser Condoleeza Rice said Washington had "no advance warning" of the attack. Rice said she knew of no consultations between Sharon and President Bush (news - web sites) about any plan to target the sheik.

But Rice, asked about U.S. reaction to the attack during an interview on NBC, said, "Let's remember that Hamas is a terrorist organization and that Sheik Yassin has himself, personally, we believe, been involved in terrorist planning."

U.N Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) condemned the killing as "contrary to international law," and urged all sides to remain calm.

Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom, after meeting with Vice President Dick Cheney (news - web sites), called the attack on Yassin a matter of self-defense and said Palestinians "will pay for their crimes. They will pay for the instructions they are giving to the suicide bombers."

Hezbollah guerrillas shelled Israeli positions in a disputed border area Monday for the first time in five months, triggering an Israeli airstrike and artillery fire, Lebanese security officials said. The Israeli army said the guerrillas fired an anti-tank and there were no reports of injuries.

Israeli helicopters fired three missile as Yassin, his bodyguards and dozens of others left a mosque in Gaza City at daybreak Monday. Yassin, a quadriplegic who uses a wheelchair, and seven others were killed, including several bodyguards. Seventeen people were wounded.

Only a charred metal seat and a twisted wheel were left of his wheelchair and a blood-soaked brown shoe lay in the street. "Two or three people were lying next to him on the ground. One was legless," said taxi driver Yousef Haddad, who had rushed out of a nearby grocery when the missiles shook the Sabra neighborhood.

Fearing reprisal attacks, Israel sealed off the West Bank and Gaza and confined many West Bank Palestinians to their communities. The Rafah border crossing between Gaza and Egypt was also closed. Troops reinforcements were sent to Gaza, and security forces in Israel were placed on high alert.

Three more Palestinians were killed in Gaza later Monday in clashes with Israeli troops, and one was killed while handling explosives.

Sharon, a former army general, was updated throughout the operation.

"The Israeli air force this morning killed the mastermind of all evil, Ahmed Yassin, who was a preacher of death," said army spokeswoman Brig. Gen. Ruth Yaron.

The Yassin assassination was seen as an enormous gamble by Sharon, who is trying to score a decisive victory against Hamas ahead of a possible Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, but risks triggering a dramatic escalation in bloodshed that could turn the public's mood in Israel against him.

Sharon's critics in Israel warned that the Yassin killing could be seen as an attack by Israel on Islam and unnecessarily widen the circle of conflict.

The Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) said in a statement that "Israel has exceeded all red lines with this cheap and dirty crime," and declared a three-day mourning period.

Flags at Yasser Arafat (news - web sites)'s headquarters in the West Bank town of Ramallah were lowered to half-staff, and the Palestinian Cabinet held an emergency session. Yassin was Arafat's biggest political rival, but Arafat has always been careful not to confront the Hamas leader openly.

Cabinet ministers stood as Arafat recited a Muslim prayer for the dead. The Palestinian leader, referring to Yassin, then added: "May you join the martyrs and the prophets. To heaven, you martyr."

Palestinian Prime Minister Ahmed Qureia said the Palestinians have lost "a great leader."

Earlier Monday, about 2,000 demonstrators gathered at Arafat's headquarters, calling for revenge. Arafat remained inside, apparently fearing he too might be targeted by Israel.

However, an Israeli security official said there were no immediate plans to target Arafat, and that Hamas was the focus of Israel's current offensive.

Tens of thousands of Palestinians marched in the West Bank in protest, including about 15,000 people in Nablus. "This morning, dozens came to us volunteering to be suicide bombers and we will send them at the right time," one masked man said at the rally.

Thousands more demonstrated in the town of Jenin. In the West Bank town of Hebron, Palestinians threw stones at Israeli soldiers, who fired tear gas.

West Bank schools were closed, and a one-day commercial strike was declared. In the Israeli prison camp of Ketziot, hundreds of Palestinian prisoners rioted briefly, setting tents on fire and throwing stones at soldiers.

The Israeli army chief, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, met with army commanders in Tel Aviv, and more forces were ordered to the Gaza Strip (news - web sites).

Hamas threatened a harsh response. "Yassin is a man in a nation, and a nation in a man. And the retaliation of this nation will be of the size of this man," said Abdel Aziz Rantisi, a prominent Hamas leader in Gaza who himself escaped an Israeli assassination attempt last June.

For the first time, Hamas also threatened the United States, saying America's backing of Israel made the assassination possible. "All the Muslims of the world will be honored to join in on the retaliation for this crime," Hamas said in a statement.

In the past, Hamas leaders have insisted their struggle is against Israel and that they would not get involved in causes by militant Muslims in other parts of the world. Monday's statement suggested that Hamas might seek outside help in carrying out revenge attacks, since its capabilities have been limited by Israeli military strikes.

Rival militant groups also threatened revenge.

The assassination was widely condemned in the Arab world and by some European countries. Egypt canceled a trip by legislators and other dignitaries to Israel, which had been planned for later this month to mark the 25th anniversary of the signing of a peace treaty between the two countries.

British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said the assassination "is unacceptable, it is unjustified and it is very unlikely to achieve its objectives."

The attack also drew criticism in Israel. Opposition leaders and even some members of Sharon's government warned the killing would increase the cycle of violence.

"My great fear is that this will be understood as an attack against a religious leader," said Interior Minister Avraham Poraz of the centrist Shinui Party.

Israel had previously tried to kill Yassin in September when a plane dropped a bomb on a building where he and other Hamas leaders were meeting. Yassin escaped with a small wound to his hand. One Israeli official recently said Yassin was "marked for death."

In more than three years of fighting, Hamas and the Israeli military have seemed to trade blows, with Hamas carrying out suicide bombings and other attacks, and Israeli responding with airstrikes and ground raids.

Sharon's recent declaration that Israel may leave Gaza has prompted both sides to intensify fighting, to try to claim an Israeli withdrawal as a victory.

At Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, where Yassin's mangled body was taken, masked gunmen shot in the air. Cars drove through the streets blaring calls for revenge over loudspeakers.

Yassin founded Hamas in 1987. He was held in Israeli prisons for several years before being released in 1997. Israel blamed him for inspiring the Hamas bombers who have killed hundreds of Israelis.

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Well, ther has been an abrupt reversal of the Bush Administrations stand, as world opinion begins to polarize against Israel:

Quote:

DIPLOMACY
A Day When the White House Reversed Stand on the Killing

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au1929 wrote:

IZ
What were the aggressive acts before the start of the Intefada [sp]? The fact is they were better off than most in the Mid East.

The occupation itself is seen as an agressive act.

Quote:

Regarding the tit for tat I agree nothing good can come of it. But consider, the outrage in the US if Bush had not gone after Al Qeada. It would have been unthinkable. The Israeli's suffer repeated 9/11's it is unthinkable that they not retaliate.

I do not question thier right to retaliate. It is thier counter-productive and morally bankrupt methods I oppose. For example, the assassination of Palestinian leaders, the building of the wall, the absurd Gestapo-like measure of control they exert over the Palestinian public, etc.

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It takes two to tango at the present moment it is my opinion that the Palestinians do not want to come to the dance.

The Jews, in a fashion typical of tyrants and oppresors, gobble up Palestinian lands and mandate the lives of an entire people on a daily basis and the possibility of them giving up this injustice you would consider a concesssion?

Please.

Any dancing that goes on is going to begin with Israel. Then, when both sides are on slightly more equal footing, concessions can be discussed.

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I used to think the only solution was the twin state option (as advocated by George Bush) i.e. Israel with secure pre 67 borders and a viable sovereign Palestinian state. But as soon as you define the borders of Israel/Palestine, you destroy the Zionist project. Sharon is not prepared to do this. Israel is only 55 years old and in his opinion it isn't yet finished. Faced with the simple choice of conceding a Palestinian state and making peace, Sharon prefers continuing war and Zionist expansionism. This policy, if not halted, will lead us all to ruin.

With hindsight, the foundation of the state of Israel, and in particular American guarantees for its support has to be one of the biggest mistakes of the 20th century. Israel has not been a success. It cannot live peaceably with its neighbours. It cannot provide peace and security even for its own people. The economy is bankrupt. It is totally dependent on American subsidies and arms. It is a failed state in all but name and would not now exist had it not been for its possession and threatened use of (American supplied) nuclear weapons.

For there to be a two state solution, it needs two parties to come together. The Zionists will not do this. Therefore we need to think in more imaginative terms. We need to understand that

a) The zionist experiment has failed.
b) The current situation is too dangerous to allow it to continue.

There is no solution long term other than Arab and Jew living together in that area of land formerly called Palestine. For one thing demographic changes mean that Arabs will soon outnumber Jews even in that part which is now called Israel.

What's needed imo is a one state solution. A bi-national state comprising Arabs and Jews, called neither Palestine nor Israel. In the meantime, the UN should administer that part of the world for the benefit and welfare of all the people who live there. With Jerusalem an open city and world heritage site, sacred to Jew Muslim and Christian, the new state could have a great future.

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IZ

Quote:

I do not question their right to retaliate. It is their counter-productive and morally bankrupt methods I oppose. For example, the assassination of Palestinian leaders, the building of the wall, the absurd Gestapo-like measure of control they exert over the Palestinian public, etc.

What is your Idea of retaliation? A kiss on both cheeks. I should remind you that it is US policy to go after the leaders of Al Qaeda in the same manner. it is also US policy to strike at the people that support and defend the terrorists.
I would also ask what would you do if you were in danger of being blown up every time you set foot out of doors.

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au1929 wrote:

IZ
Quote:

I would also ask what would you do if you were in danger of being blown up every time you set foot out of doors.

I would destroy houses in my neighborhood that were too close to my house or that had suspicious people in them.

I would build houses in other peoples yards and fill them with my family to provide security. I would arm my family in case these other people take offence.

I would shoot and throw bombs at people in my neighborhood who were suspicious without too much concern if his children or friends were caught in the middle.

I would assassinate the priest/minister/rabbi of my neighbor with a rocket has as he was leaving a religious service.

I would build a giant fence that separated me from my neighbors. I would make sure it crossed my neighbors yards so that it didn't inconvenience me.

I would close my mind to the possibility that my neighbors are human.

This would be the best way for me to reach peace in my neighborhood.

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Brown
That is not an answer just sarcastic BS.
Were you an Israeli living under the constant threat of being killed in a terrorist attack. The attack being indiscriminately against civilians, old, young, cleric, Arab, Jew or whatever. What would you suggest as a reaction? Turn the other cheek? That has happened too many times in the history of the Jews.

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Brown
This is an exerpt from an article in NRO. Check the underlined in particular the figures.
.

Israel's move was both justified and likely to achieve its objective, if it's followed up by an all-out war on Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the militant elements of Yasser Arafat's murderous regime. Let's be clear about the facts. Under Sheik Yassin's inspiration and direction, Hamas launched 425 attacks against Israel over the past three and a half years. Among these were more than 50 suicide bombings, such as the March 2002 bombing of a Passover celebration at a seaside hotel and the June 2002 suicide bombing of a Jerusalem bus carrying children on their way to school. All told, Hamas has killed some 377 Israelis and wounded 2,076 others, a horrifyingly huge number given Israel's relatively small population. Indeed, in proportion to our own population, that would be similar to al-Qaeda killing 16,956 Americans, and wounding another 93,420.

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My "sarcasm" is pointing out that Israel needs to take a large part of the blame for the violent society which they have nurtured.

Israel has constantly chosen violence and brutality over peace and compromise. (Of course the Palestinians have made the same tragic choices).

Israel and the Palestinians are both responsible for the current cycle of "terrorism". The current prediciment that Israeli citizens face is a consequent of the decisions that both sides have taken together.

For you to say that the violence justifies Israeli brutality and inhumanity is riduculous. The brutality and hatred and vengence and fear of both sides caused the problems.

What makes you think that more of the same will fix it?

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Strong Explosion in Gaza. More details are unknown...

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I find Steve's analysis above quite persuasive.

The problem of Israel/Palestine is one of several left over from WWI and the Treaty of Versailles that ended it. The allied powers (Britain, France, Russia) were then all too willing to dismember the Ottoman Empire during that war, in part because it very tentatively aligned itself with Germany, and because it stood in the way of the Imperial; aspirations of both the British and the Russians. The Arab population of the Middle East and Mesopotamia was given to understand they would have a good measure of independence and self determination in arranging their own futures. Lord Balfour, the British Foreign secretary made committments to the Hashemite Arab leaders in this area. Unfortunately he also made quite contradictory committments to Zionist leaders, prominsing to facilitate the creation of a "Jewish Homeland" in Palestine. Later Woodrow Wilson's ill-conceived 14 points and unqualified rhetoric about universal self determination added fuel to that fire. What the Arab leaders really got from Versailles was an extention of French and British colonialism in the form of League of Nations "Mandates" over the territory of the former Ottoman Empire. This caused bitter frustration that later exploded in 1948.

The many other contradictions of the unfortunate Versailles treaty set the seeds for a renewal of the 1914 war which occurred less than twenty years after the first round of conflict ended. This time Nazi anti semitism and general European indifference brought about the extermination of millions of European Jews. In the postwar confusion and exhaustion of Europe the fates of the hundreds of thousands of surviving but displaced Jews were left more or less to chance, and, in a move that should have surprised no one, the Zionist movement suddenly took wings and hundreds of thousands of jews quickly fled to the promised new homeland in Palestine.

This set the stage for the conflict that persists today. Both parties in it - Jews and Palestinians - are victims of the foolishness and duplicity of European powers. At the same time it would be difficult to accuse either the Israelis or the Palestinians of an excess of wisdom and humanity in their failed attempts to deal with the problem since then.

After WWII the United States took the lead in attempting to repair the ravaged economies of Europe and, as well, several trailing unresolved issues from Versailles. Our motives were a mixture of the altruistic and fear of Soviet domination. The Marshal Plan and recognition of Israel occurred at about the same time and in part for related reasons. The, by then well organized political support of American Jews for Israel then became and has since remained a factor in all this. In the aftermath of WWII it would be very hard to fault them for this. The situation since 1967 has become a bit more cloudy, however, and we too have become part of the problem.

These details are important, because Europeans today seem to be in a state of extreme forgetfulness of all that happened before 1980.

The collapse of European wealth and inperial power that began in WWI and continued through WWII and the subsequent Cold War with the Soviet Regime spawned during WWI, all left the United States as the sole remaining "superpower" ( a label Europeans appear to enjoy putting on us). Along with this has come the legacy of the past foolishness and misdeads of the European powers themselves. While our present status in the world gives us a measure of responsibility for fixing these situations, it is worth remembering it ins mostly our vociferous current critics who were responsible for creating them.

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George

I agree Britain was at fault for making mutually exclusive promises to both sides. But there was a war on.
Truman made the decision to support the establishment of Israel because there was an election on. If only the wiser council of Forrestal and George Marshall had prevailed?

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Quote:

What's needed imo is a one state solution. A bi-national state comprising Arabs and Jews, called neither Palestine nor Israel. In the meantime, the UN should administer that part of the world for the benefit and welfare of all the people who live there. With Jerusalem an open city and world heritage site, sacred to Jew Muslim and Christian, the new state could have a great future.

Nice plan Steve, but not realistic.

1) A bi-national state would mean that in less than 10, 20 years, the Arab population will be the majority in the country. This would be unacceptable for the Jewish Israeli's, for that will be the end of the Jewish state.

2) Palestinian organizations like Hamas and Fatah do not want a shared state, but want the Jewish Israeli's totally out of the Middle-East. They would not except a combined state.

3) The moral wounds caused by the ongoing fight between Israeli's and Palestinians are just too deep. Together in one state would not work, for there is no strong base for it, too little trust.

Again, a combined plan would mean no more fighting over land, but it's just not realistic.

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