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Eye On Israel/Palestine

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2004 03:48 pm
So then just what IS realistic? I see no more merit in a Jewish theocracy than I do in a Moslem one.

The problem in the Mid East is that the "loonies" on both sides have effectively held their governments hostage, and prevented any steps offering the promise of joint economic and political development in the land called Palestine.

The Clinton/Barac peace plan made about as much sense as the South African Nationallst Party's Apartheit plans with isolated enclaves ("Bantustands") for the Black population - Like the Clinton/Barac Plan each cantonment would be completely surrounded by the territory of the master state which would retain control over air and water rights, as well as defense.

My opinion (and it is just an opinion) is that there is no two state solution possible without continued murder and warfare. A single state solution might have been possible in 1967, but it also seems unlikely today. Which of the presently available alternatives is worse? A tough call.

The history of Northern Ireland over the last three hundred years offers us a fairly good model for the future of this one. (On this one British policy , at least for the last 20 years, has been temperate and wise.) The key point here is that the hatreds, the injustice (all around) and the killings can go on for centuries. They will end only when both sides are exhausted and more desirous of an end to the conflict then they were to the sectarian dreams that fed it. That could take a long time.

Steve,

You are correct about "a war on" when the Balfour Declaration was issued. However, essentially the same situation also prevailed with respect to the Cold War and many (not all) of our basic decisions with respect to Israel. It is an interesting and little publicized point that Britain and France were the primcipal providers of weapons and aircraft to the fledgling Israeli state. U.S. equipment did not begin to dominate there until after 1967. My main point, however, is that Europeans are at best dead wrong and at worst profoundly hypocritical when they blame the U.S. for this mess.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2004 06:39 pm
George

I'm not quite as generous as you are regarding British policy in N Ireland. 20 years ago we had Margaret Thatcher allowing IRA prisoners to starve to death (one of them an elected member of parliament) by refusing them 'political status'...something which had been granted but then withdrawn. Loyalist hit squads were directed by Army and SAS personnel, killing ?? innocent and not so innocent Republicans. They killed 3 in Gibraltar when they could have been arrested. What changed was a recognition that neither side could win, and moreover the fight became meaningless, as European integration developed. Oh and a very large bomb in the financial district of London. Suddenly with the prospect of city traders uprooting to Frankfurt or Paris, John Major decided it was time to sit down and talk seriously. That was only 10 years ago. Then the new Labour govt came in and fairly quickly sealed it with the Belfast agreement 1998. The political structures are still very shaky, but the war is over. How this was done can provide valuable lessons for other conflicts, not least the middle east.

Rick, I think you misunderstand. I wasn't proposing a gradual swallowing up of Israel by Palestine. I propose to set a date NOW for the end of the Israeli state, handover of power to the UN and then the launch of a new bi-national Jewish/Arab state, with equal rights for all and guaranteed by the world community. As you probably know the small indigenous Jewish communities in the Arab world lived relatively peaceably with their neighbours for many years. It was the Zionist programme for a specifically Jewish state on Arab land that caused all the trouble. And for that I blame Britain for making duplicitous promises, and America for its myopic support of Israel.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2004 06:59 pm
Interesting points Steve. I do believe there is an important internal difference in the case of Northern Ireland. That is that both sides there have become disenchanted with their own radical elements. Ian Paisley is more a joke now than a real leader. The worst of the Loyalist and "Real IRA" murderers are increasingly seen for what they are by their own communities. I dson't think that comparable attitudes exist among enough of the population in the Mid East - on eather side of the dispute..
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2004 07:15 pm
The real solution to the Israel/Palestine Conflict is not
offering the Palestinians even less land than had been proposed
by U.N. Resolution 181. It is the abandonment of a
religiously/ethnically bigoted, exclusivist state, and replacing
it with one completly integrating the Semitic brethren, both Arab
and Jew in Palestine.

A division of Israel into two states within a pan-Semitic
Palestine, one the state of Israel, the other the state of
Palestine with a central governing body open to and serving all
inhabitants thereof. Full citizenship would be given to the
subjugated people in the Occupied Territories, with certain legal
guarantees for all inhabitants, and a full unbiased
enfranchisment of the people therein.

Jews would have full Palestinian citizenship and rights, and
Palestinians would have full Israeli citizenship and rights.
Israel and Palestine would be states in a federation, and
Israelis and Palestinians would both be able to run for the prime
ministry of that federation. That federation should be based on
secular laws not religious--a path Israel has largely taken
already. There would be religious freedom, but no state
sponsored religions. The citizens would be allowed to worship
when and where they pleased as long as it doesn't infringe on
others' rights thereof.

In regard to the settlements and the right of return, integration
is the only workable solution.

Frankly,
I don't see an end to the terrorism and violence even if the
"road map" were to succeed. There will always be extremists on
both sides eager to shed blood. The best that can be done is to
reduce the violence through an integrated effort.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2004 07:18 pm
Sorry,
I hadn't read Steve's posts on the issue of a one state solution, making mine redundant.

I agree with your position, Steve.
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 23 Mar, 2004 10:57 pm
The problem with the Zionist claim is that it ignores the rights, and is contemptuous of a population that existed in Palestine before the Zionists--Ashkenazim Jews, Europeans--invaded and arrogated it in the name of their state founded on their bigoted, chauvinist and exclusionist ideology. The Zionist claim is problematic also because it is a reaction to the European anti-Jewish bigotry and intolerance of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries based, paradoxically, on bigotry and intolerance. It is a response to bigotry with bigotry. Zionism is a contradiction and worse, a hypocrisy.

About the Arabs, next to the Zionists, they are their own worst enemies. Like what a lot of people say here, it seems they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. The thing about the Palestinian terrorism, though, is that the militants play into the Israeli hard-liners' hands. The militants do not want compromise as much as the Israeli hard-line doesn't. That is one reason why Israel supported Hamas early on. As former US State Department counter-terrorism official Larry Johnson has said, "the Israelis are their own worst enemies when it comes to fighting terrorism. The Israelis are like a guy who sets fire to his hair and then tries to put it out by hitting it with a hammer."
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:58 am
au1929 wrote:
IZ
Quote:

I do not question their right to retaliate. It is their counter-productive and morally bankrupt methods I oppose. For example, the assassination of Palestinian leaders, the building of the wall, the absurd Gestapo-like measure of control they exert over the Palestinian public, etc.


I should remind you that it is US policy to go after the leaders of Al Qaeda in the same manner. it is also US policy to strike at the people that support and defend the terrorists.


Heh. That certainly doesn't justify what the Israelis are doing.

Also, you cannot seriously compare the Gestapo-like measures Isreal employs in Palestine to the American approach to Al-Qaida.

Quote:
I would also ask what would you do if you were in danger of being blown up every time you set foot out of doors.


I wouldn't take actions that excacerbate the problem, for sure.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 08:52 am
InfraBlue

Your posts were interesting thanks, certainly not redundant.....as you agree with me :wink:

I'm reluctant to discuss Israel, because of the violent reaction of some who confuse (often deliberately imo) opposition to Zionism and the policies of the govt of Israel with anti semitism. Do you feel the same hesitation to speak your mind?

I know of at least one person who is totally inhibited in this respect, being German.
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:12 pm
Quote:
It takes two to tango at the present moment it is my opinion that the Palestinians do not want to come to the dance.


And what about the sickening strategy of Sharon?

Arafat has been grounded and isn't allowed to leave the West Bank. The IDF also demolished the infrastructure of the police and securityforces.
This gives Hamas and other (criminal) organisations a free hand to do whatever they wanted (especially in Gaza). Hamas also has a social network, very important in Palestine, where occupation, incompetence and corruption have created an economic disaster.

And now Sharon kills the leader of Hamas, making him a martyr.
This killing will also have a radicalising effect on the Palestinian
people.

Result of all those actions: the political peace process is dead because Sharon has nobody to talk peace to. Arafat and the PA is weakened and Hamas is only interested in the destruction of Israel. And THAT is what Sharon wants!!! He is not interested in peace. Sharon hates to dance, so he killed the DJ. No music, no dancing, that's his strategy!
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 12:28 pm
They are dancing.

Sharon and Hamas are the best of dance partners. Their share the same rhetoric, the same love of violence is the same, and the same willingness to use nationalism to justify brutality.

Every step Sharon takes fills Hamas with legitamacy (and support and money). Every step Hamas takes fills Sharon with power (and support).

It is a lovely romance, comsumated with each bombing and missle.

Yes they are dancing to the music of hatred and violence.

What a lovely couple.
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InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 08:27 pm
It's come to the point where I don't care if I'm called anti-Semitic. What does the word mean anymore, anyhow? It used to be a euphemism for "Jew-hatred," but now it's applied to anything from Hitler, the Nazis and the Holocaust to criticism of Israel and the Judaic religion. I point out what's obvious, that Zionism has been from its very inception a bigoted and chauvinistic ideology born of the jingoistic nationalist movements of the nineteenth century (of which Nazism was also a product) that cared not a snot for the rights and interests of the Arabs in Palestine who pre-existed their incursion from Europe.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 24 Mar, 2004 09:39 pm
ILZ, the word is "pillar" . . .
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 12:19 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

a) The zionist experiment has failed.
b) The current situation is too dangerous to allow it to continue.


If we start with the premise above - which I am sure we all agree is correct - I don't see how you and Infra can arrive at the conclusion below:


Quote:
There is no solution long term other than Arab and Jew living together in that area of land formerly called Palestine. For one thing demographic changes mean that Arabs will soon outnumber Jews even in that part which is now called Israel.

What's needed imo is a one state solution. A bi-national state comprising Arabs and Jews, called neither Palestine nor Israel. In the meantime, the UN should administer that part of the world for the benefit and welfare of all the people who live there. With Jerusalem an open city and world heritage site, sacred to Jew Muslim and Christian, the new state could have a great future.


It seems farfetched for me to imagine that either the Jews or the Palestinians - after so many decades of vociferous and pugnacious opposition - would be content with a one state solution. Much of the Palestinian beef seems to rest on thier desire for statehood. Likewise, much of the Israeli side is based on the desire for a Jewish homeland.

It seems to me that the only pragmatic solution is a two-state system. This would achieve the core demands of the israelis and the Palestinians. The specifics could be worked out in time, but I advocate a return to 1967 borders, for starters.

You and infra have presented an interesting option. Its just that, it seems inconceivable to me that a functioning, democratic, peacefull state could be formed out of two groups with such deep-seated hatred to each other, such a history of violence, such diametrically opposed ideologies, and such mutually exclusive goals.

For example, Palestinians will soon outnumber Israelis by far, which would give them a virtual monopoly in any one state democratic system. I think we can all see the implications of this.

Setanta wrote:
ILZ, the word is "pillar" . . .


What?
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 12:43 am
Hamas has appointed a new leader to replace Yassin.

Quote:
GAZA CITY ?- Abdulaziz Rantisi, a pediatrician and senior Hamas official known for his hard-line views, was appointed Tuesday to the militant group's top post, putting him squarely in the cross hairs of Israel.


The 56-year-old Rantisi replaced Sheik Ahmed Yassin, who was assassinated a day earlier by Israel. The Jewish state promised Tuesday to target Hamas officials and other Palestinian leaders, and hinted that the threat could extend to Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) President Yasser Arafat (news - web sites).


"I have no doubt that if we persist in our operations against Hamas and other terror organizations in all channels, including the operations against the leaders, we'll bring security for the citizens of Israel," Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz said on Israel Radio.


Internal Security Minister Tzachi Hanegbi said Israel's hit list "includes everyone down to the very last among them, including those who appear on television and lash out telling us their intention to cut the prime minister's head off."


Hanegbi's remarks were an obvious reference to Rantisi, who in a fiery speech Monday warned that Hamas planned to launch reprisal attacks against Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) and his Cabinet for plotting Yassin's assassination.


In an interview before his promotion was made public, Rantisi downplayed Israel's latest threat to target senior Hamas figures.


"I am not afraid. I am looking to be martyred. Why? Because I believe the last day for me is not in the hands of Sharon but in the hands of Allah," he said.


Palestinian sources said Hamas' strategy was not likely to change under Rantisi because the organization's secretive leadership council ?- which makes key decisions ?- remains in place. Rantisi's ideology mirrors Yassin's: that Jews must withdraw from the Gaza Strip (news - web sites), the West Bank and all of what is modern-day Israel, to make way for a Palestinian homeland.


"We will fight them everywhere. We will hit them everywhere. We will chase them everywhere. We will teach them lessons in confrontation," Rantisi told supporters in his first public remarks after his appointment. "My dear people, you who were displaced by the Jews from your villages and cities, you will return to your villages and cities through fighting, because we don't have any other strategic option."


Palestinian sources made it clear that Rantisi would serve as political leader and not assume Yassin's role as spiritual leader. Yassin, unlike Rantisi, was a Muslim cleric.


Rantisi's promotion from deputy political leader followed succession rules outlined in Hamas' constitution. Under the complex leadership structure, separate leaders oversee the Gaza Strip, West Bank and Palestinian constituencies abroad. The overall political chief is Khaled Meshaal, who is based in Syria. But the fact that the Gaza Strip is Hamas' stronghold signals that Rantisi has emerged as the group's top official.


Monday's missile attack on the 67-year-old Yassin ?- slain as he left a mosque in his wheelchair after dawn prayers ?- drew widespread international condemnation.


Israeli officials said Yassin was responsible for Hamas suicide bombings that have killed scores of Jews during the 3?-year Palestinian uprising. They say a series of "targeted killings" of key Hamas figures last year resulted in a drop in suicide attacks because militants were driven into hiding. Yassin survived one of those strikes when a bomb was dropped on a building where he was meeting with other Hamas leaders.


The army's chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, suggested Tuesday that Israel's strikes could extend to Arafat and Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, leader of the Lebanon-based Hezbollah group, which recently carried out a prisoner swap with Israel.


"I believe that their reactions [Monday] indicate that they understand that this is nearing them," he said.


Arafat, who has been confined by Israel to his compound in the West Bank city of Ramallah for two years, was said to have expressed concern that he might be targeted next.


Thousands of mourners in Gaza City attended an outdoor memorial service at dusty Yarmouk Stadium on the second of three days of mourning for Yassin. Men waited in long lines to pay their final respects to senior Hamas leaders and Yassin's family.





"With this assassination, you crossed every red line and started a new period of bloodshed that will never end," said a banner near the stadium entrance. "Israel will live with this bloodshed day and night."

On a blanket on the ground, a child sold postcards for 11 cents apiece of Palestinian insurgents killed in past attacks against Israel. Nearby, another vendor sold $1.20 CDs of recorded messages that suicide bombers made before their attacks. "Business is pretty good," said Abdullah Horani as he pointed to two of the hottest sellers. "We'll have a new one of Sheik Yassin in a couple of days."

Israel remained on a high state of alert Tuesday, sealing off the West Bank and Gaza Strip to prevent suicide bombers from launching reprisal attacks. Israeli officials warned that could last for weeks.

In Jerusalem, where most of the suicide bombings have occurred, soldiers and police were stationed on nearly every major street corner. Many residents stayed away from public areas.

A poll published by Yediot Aharonot newspaper, the country's biggest-selling daily, revealed that although most Israelis supported Yassin's assassination, 81% of respondents expected a rise in attacks.

"I know they will retaliate. But if they didn't take down Yassin, they would try to attack us anyway," said Eli Cornfeld, 17, tending a nearly empty pizza shop on normally busy Jaffa Street.

The political boost that the Yassin strike gave Sharon in Israel contrasted with the reaction abroad, where the attack drew widespread condemnation Monday and sparked huge street protests in neighboring Arab countries.

The United States, after initially avoiding criticism of Israel, altered its tone and said it was "deeply troubled" by the assassination.

In New York, the United Nations (news - web sites) Security Council on Tuesday debated Israel's killing of Yassin but failed to agree on a statement condemning the assassination.

The council will continue discussions today. If there is no agreement, Arab nations may introduce a resolution condemning the killing, which would probably be vetoed by the United States.

Students demonstrated in Ramallah, the home of the Palestinian Authority, but the protests were smaller and quieter than those Monday.

In the Israeli city of Nazareth, thousands of Israeli Arabs protested the killing, and in Jerusalem, student protesters at Hebrew University, where Sharon was visiting, carried placards saying, "The assassination policy is killing us."

There were a few reports of violent flare-ups in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

In the southern Gaza Strip early today, Israel sent about 50 tanks, helicopters and bulldozers into the Khan Yunis refugee camp, residents said. They said soldiers and Palestinians traded gunfire and at least five buildings were razed, but no one was killed.

Two Palestinians were killed near the settlement of Moraj, which is close to Rafah, also in southern Gaza. The Israeli army said that soldiers acted to protect the settlement when they saw someone approach and that they found an explosive device on one of the bodies. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attempted attack.

Hamas, which has won a broad, grass-roots following in the Gaza Strip through its schools and health clinics, calls for Israel's elimination and the establishment of Islamic rule.

Another prominent Hamas leader, Mahmoud Zahar, who also survived an Israeli assassination attempt last year, said the group would take part in government and elections if Israel withdrew from the coastal strip.

Hamas has held municipal posts in the past, but holding higher office would represent a shift for the group, which has eschewed positions in the governing Palestinian Authority because it rejects the authority's legitimacy.

"We're now in the age of liberation," Rantisi said. "We'll talk about elections at a different time."

The future role of Hamas in the Gaza Strip has been a source of speculation since Sharon proposed evacuating Jewish settlers and most of Israel's army contingent as part of a plan to cut Israel's ties to the Palestinians. Under the disengagement plan, Israel would unilaterally withdraw from most or all of the Gaza Strip settlements as well as an undetermined number in the West Bank.

Sharon has said he would act on his own after determining that there was no chance for fruitful negotiations with the Palestinians under the U.S.-backed "road map" initiative. The peace plan has been stalled for months, and most observers say the Yassin assassination dooms any hopes of reviving it any time soon.

President Bush (news - web sites) said Tuesday that he would send senior diplomats to the region next week in an attempt to rescue the peace process. A trio of high-level emissaries has visited twice in recent weeks to discuss Sharon's withdrawal proposal.

Rantisi is known for opposing any accommodation with Israel and has resisted calls for a cease-fire.

Born on Oct. 23, 1947, in Yebna, present-day Israel, Rantisi moved to Gaza as a refugee in 1949. He studied medicine in Egypt, where he became a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. He is a founding member of Hamas and a lecturer in the nursing department of Gaza's Islamic University.

Rantisi has been arrested or detained by Israel several times and spent nearly a decade behind bars. He won notice as a spokesman for Palestinian militants who were deported to southern Lebanon in 1992. Upon his return, he was jailed until 1997.

Last June, Rantisi was targeted by the Israelis. The attack on his jeep killed his two bodyguards and four bystanders, including a young girl, but he managed to escape with minor injuries. His son was also seriously injured in the attack.

During Tuesday's interview, Rantisi said Hamas' military wing would play the leading role in determining strategy.

"It's up to the military wing to do everything," he said. "It's not revenge. It's war. I believe we will see a series of reactions."
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 05:44 am
Read your "electronic signature" ILZ. If you attempt to indulge in satire, it helps to spell everything correctly.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 10:30 am
Setanta wrote:
Read your "electronic signature" ILZ. If you attempt to indulge in satire, it helps to spell everything correctly.


I don't want my perfection to intimidate others, so occasionally, I make a spelling or grammatical error. Thats the kind of God IronLionZion is - altruistic and considerate. I'm always putting the feelings of others above my own.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 11:12 am
Pardon me, i mistated the case: when you indulge in patently specious attempts at an overbearing, arrogant hauteur, you only make yourself look ridiculous when you can't even spell the words correctly.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 11:27 am
Setanta wrote:
Pardon me, i mistated the case: when you indulge in patently specious attempts at an overbearing, arrogant hauteur, you only make yourself look ridiculous when you can't even spell the words correctly.


Likewise, your overbearing, bland attempts at flaming only make you look flaming in a very different, more disturbing way...

In any case, playfull condescension is the garnish to the points I make. You can just as easily get around it to the substance of my posts, as I attempt to do with the grandiloquent confections you offer forth.

Toodles.
0 Replies
 
Rick d Israeli
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:13 pm
I do not think I misunderstood you Steve. I still think that it would be the perfect solution on paper, but its just not realistic. Comparing it with the Jewish communities in the Arab countries does not mean that it will work for Israel. Jews in Arab countries 1) talk Arabic, 2) know the Arab customs and culture, 3) have a long history in these countries, which meant the base for the good relationship a lot of Jews in Arab countries still have with the non-Jewish Arabs. Most Jews in Israel are not familiar with Arab customs, the Arab moral values etc., for most are (descendants of) European Jews. And to live in a combined state will mean that both people will have to understand each other, the other culture, thinking, ideas. If we talk about the Palestinians, it is the same thing: they will share one country with people who are mostly influenced by the Western way of thinking. I do not say it is impossible to understand each other, but it will be very, very hard, and at this moment, with the Second Intifada still going on, I do think it is impossible for most (not all of course). I talked to a lot of both Israeli's and Palestinians on arabia.com and what I heard is that there just is so much HATE, from both sides. First I wanted to change - and I still want that -, but I realised that the problems can NOT be solved by putting the two people in ONE state. I once proposed the plan, and it was funny because only Americans and Europeans found that a good idea, while the Israeli's and Palestinians both said: ABSOLUTELY NOT (they finally agreed on something :wink: ). After 50 years of struggle, it will become very hard.
Also, someone pointed at the peaceful abolishing of apartheid of South Africa. Has anyone looked at the situation nowadays? I don't want to be pessimistic, but there is still a huge gap between the white and the black population. Many white South-Africans leave the country, while the black population struggles with high unemployement rates (to give an example) because of the fact the number of black people with a diploma is low because of the apartheid policy. There is of course improvement, but it has shown to be very hard.
And in the case of Israel and Palestine, the situation seems to be even harder because of the fact that we are talking here (in the case of the Israelis) of one Jewish state, a state which will be demolished because of the growing and growing Arab population, which will mean in not so many years Arabs would become the largest part of the population in a combined state. The only way that Israelis could preserve their Jewish state would mean a sort of apartheid-regime, which would be no solution. On the other side, a lot of Palestinians do not recognize the Jewish Israeli's of even having the RIGHT to claim land (which can be very logical). Many Palestinian refugees want their land back in Israel, and most do not want to settle with a financial compensation.
For me, this makes it all just unrealistic to really create a combined state that will WORK.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Mar, 2004 02:28 pm
Why don't you separate your paragraphs? It obfuscates your points.
0 Replies
 
 

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