Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?

Ah Hah - I found what you were talking about. I think you missed my point in that other thread (which I didn't state outright)- which was that defining love is almost impossible. It means different things to different people and in different circumstance. I'm happy with what I know it as :>

...I was with an headache...

You're not shy, MichaelJ, you are withdrawn, inhibited by anxieties, and wrapped in a shell, and those are the psychological problems you need to address with a therapist--they affect every area of your life.

Right now, you need to get your priorities straight.

Stop obsessing about a relationship that ended 8 months ago, or one that ended 7 years ago, and start getting yourself in shape for the next challenge you are going to face. You will be moving to a new location in a few months, to live with your sister, and, among other things, you are going to need to look for a new job. You need to start getting yourself ready for that--right now.

Job hunting is competitive, and you've got to get yourself into the best possible shape, appearance wise, that you can. When you walk through the door for a job interview, the first impression you make will be your total appearance, and you've got to look like a man who cares about himself, takes care of himself, pays attention to his grooming and attire, and takes pride in himself. And, if you don't start working on these things now, you're not going to be ready to put your best foot forward when you need to do that. The one area you can begin working on immediately are all those external factors about appearance and the way you look. The goal for you should be to get yourself looking as good as possible--so you have the best possible version of you to present to the world--and, accomplishing that, will make you feel much better about yourself.

Get yourself on some sort of exercise program, and stick to it. You can find exercise DVDs at your local library, and tons of exercise advice on the internet. You don't need special equipment, you just need to devise a program for yourself, set aside time every day to follow it, and get started. In addition, go walking more, and start climbing stairs instead of using elevators. Not only will your body start looking better, and functioning better, your mood will improve as well.

Start adapting a healthy lifestyle. Pay attention to what you eat, eliminate junk, stop drinking excessively, and feed your body like you really care about it. Start getting enough sleep--and regular exercise should help you to sleep better--and go to bed early enough so you can get 8 hours of sleep, and develop a wind-down routine so you get yourself ready for sleep every night. Proper sleep and diet and exercise will help you to both look and feel better.

If you don't like the way your hair looks, go talk with a hair stylist to get suggestions for changes that might make you look more attractive and feel better about yourself--there are all sorts of things that can be done with style, texture, and even color, and those can make a big difference, and it's a worthwhile investment. Make sure your clothes fit you well, and look good on you, and are always clean and in good condition.

Start checking out the job situation in the area you will be moving to. It can easily take several months to find a job--so start looking right now. Get some idea what's available, what these jobs pay, what benefits they offer, and, if something looks good, apply immediately, because that opportunity might not be around later. And that's why you need to start getting yourself into good physical shape immediately--you can't afford to waste time, you need to start pulling yourself together ASAP, and start making yourself look and feel as well as possible.

And, since money is tight for you, think about getting a temporary part-time second job for the next few months, anything that will put a little extra money in your pocket. You might be able to find something for a few hours in the evening and/or weekends--you've got the free time for a second job of that type. And it doesn't matter what kind of work it is--you just need to earn some extra money right now. And don't tell me it can't be done--at one point in my life, when I was your age, I worked 6 days and 4 nights a week, and, on a 5th night, I took course work. You do what you need to do, and, at the moment, you need to earn some more money. There are all sorts of part-time jobs around, you just have to search them out--lots of little stores and businesses even have Help Wanted signs posted in their windows.

So, you've got a lot that you should be focusing on, and doing, right now. And whining about past relationships, and women, and your various feelings of deprivation and inadequacy, or whether you should go to someone's wedding, are needless distractions that simply give you more excuses to not do what you ought to be doing with your life right now.

If you are smart, you will focus on what realistically should be your main priority in life right now--getting yourself ready for a big move and readjustment in your living situation, and in shape, both physically and emotionally, for a job search, and, hopefully, for a new job and a life filled with exciting opportunities, including opportunities for new relationships. But, if you don't start getting yourself ready right now, you will have no one but yourself to blame for your lack of options. If you want doors to open for you, start unlocking them.

First of all, I want to thank you, vikkor and everyone else who's had something constructive to say to me.

I don't agree with everything but I've thought about the things you've all said and continue to think about them. When I post something that refute/contradicts what you've said, that doesn't mean I haven't given a great deal of thought to changing both my attitudes and actions. It just means I'm fleshing out my own thoughts. A lot of this stuff I've never gotten talk to anyone about before.

Also whether or not I actually do change myself, I still think "Can life have meaning if your dreams are unattainable?" is a legitimate thing to ponder. And whether imagined or real, I've felt and continue to feel that my dream of being a father is unattainable.

I think I miss my Dad more than my mom. I love mom too, but Dad's memories are the strongest. He gave me so much in the brief time I knew him. I could never find words strong enough to express how much fun and TRUE satisfaction/enjoyment I experienced hanging out with Dad learning about things like photography, flying, jet engines, history, humor, life, ect. Everyday I think of something I wish I could tell him, something I wish I could ask him. It's been 20 plus years of this.

I guess that's why I want to be a dad. I want to do that stuff again with someone who sees everything I show them with an awe because it's the first time they've ever seen it. I've even had names picked out, boy and girl for quite awhile. I know I can't ever be a child again but that was the happiest time of my life. I want to give my son or daughter something awesome that doesn't just stop all of a sudden out of nowhere.

I've actually found something that will be quite time consuming to fill my free time until I move. I've met some people with some pretty nice equipment and we're going to work on a project. I went to school for something other than what I really wanted to do. I felt the degree I ended up getting was more "practical" and it is semi related to what I used to like to do for fun. Never tried doing something quite like this before so a lot of it will be learning experiences in working under a time constraint and trying to be as efficient and effective as possible. Could be a complete mess, who knows. But it should be a lot of fun ...I think I might actually be exited about something. If we keep things tight we could have it done by early May.

"You have these idiotic fantasies--that other people walk happily into the sunset with lifetime partners..."

Mary Poppins is LITERALLY walking off into the sunset. She's off in California on a beach somewhere. I'm not "idiotic", I know ALL people have problems through out the course of their lives. But some people (like Mary Poppins) have ridiculous advantages in life that cause their problems to carry much less weight. Because of these advantages they have a much higher likelihood of overcoming these problems.

"Similarly, you see all other people as having parents who willingly foot bills for college tuition, or for car repairs, or anything else their adult children require--"

When Mary Poppins moved out, her parents loaned her over $2,000 to buy out her half of the lease. I can't think of one person I knew that went to school with me that didn't have some sort of family help with expenses. I'm not saying that parents should "Be ATMS for adult children in their 30's". I'm just saying that ANY extra help affects outcomes. The building I lived in caught fire and I lost a lot of my belongings 3 years ago. I had nowhere to go!

Much more than financial help, I see all my friends and the other support they get from their families. Mental support, emotional support, friendship, a feeling of "oneness". I'd give anything to talk to dad about Mary Poppins and just say "Dad, I just don't know how to process this". It's just a desolate feeling not having someone to talk to during both the good and bad times. I didn't go to either my high school or college graduation because there was no point. No one was there. I had no one to call when I was excited because I got a job doing what I wanted to do.

I wish I could ask dad what to do with all the really nice things Mary Poppins gave me because looking at them makes me angry, but I can't throw them away. I want to ask dad what I should do with nice really nice leather bound journal she bought me because she wanted me to start writing again, that has a note inside that says "write something everyday, even if it's nonsense. Your nonsense is always the best anyway ".

"You feel too inadequate to even be friends with men, or date women, around your own age."

I have friends my "own" age. I'm not attracted to women my age. I'm just not, sorry. I think women (generally speaking but not all) are attracted to men older than them, and men (generally speaking but not all) are attracted to women younger than them. It has to do with evolution. It has to do with biology. Plus younger than me is a pretty wide range anyway, it could mean anything.

Just because the 'philosophical arguments' I've been proposing have had a negative energy to them or just because they have furthered my self defeating behavior/thinking doesn't make them any less valid. Admit it, I've made some strong arguments that even if you haven't agreed with have made you think.

I do need exercise. This is really bothering me. I used to lift weights 5 days a week. It's just so hard to start back up. I haven't exercised in like 4 years.

My hair is just bad, there's nothing you can do with it. It's thick and bad. My eyes make me look sad or angry or tired or whatever even when I'm neutral or even happy. Without the hat, I'd have to be non stop laughing and smiling 24 hours a day to convince people I wasn't upset. I'd have to overcompensate with brimming optimism 24/7, I could never be real. With the hat on people focus on my mouth which is less jarring.

vikkor was wrong about the math equation by the way and I hope you also can see the reasoning behind what I was saying there. You can call it a "philosophical argument" if you choose but it's simply a fact of life.

We as human beings have a built in imprint that tells us all to procreate in order to pass our genes on. We all know we will die, but if we have children, in a way we (and all our ancestors) can live on! This is a pretty huge biological imperative that we all carry. I'd say this most definitely ties into the "meaning of life" type questions and thinking.

Those two desert islands prove that women have a higher chance of procreating. Barring some other medical issue that impedes it, women (I believe that would mean ALL women) have the ability of passing their genes on. Men on the other hand MUST compete with the other men on the island in order to pass their genes on. Men don't have a guaranteed biological factor to rest on. Remember, even on the island with only one man and 100 women all those women still had the very real possibility of having a baby after nine months and passing on their genes. On the island with 100 men and one woman, 99 of those men will not pass on their genes.

Do you see what I'm saying? Women can CHOOSE not to have offspring, but at least that option is ALWAYS available to them.

You see??? The playing field is very clearly unequal. Women have a much higher chance of finding 'meaning' or satisfaction in life IF you consider how strong a biological imperative the entire human race has to procreate.

Non dream related things that have meaning : making breakfast, enjoying music, exercising, artistic expressions (painting/singing/dancing/poetry etc), friendship, work, saving animals, caring for the sick, laughter, achieving, creating, legacy, sentimentality, memories etc.
Jealousy?

Whether or not your philosophical arguments have an element of validity in them...isn’t the point. Even murderers can have some valid reasons for murdering someone. The point is the outcome on you of holding those views dearly to you.

I wasn’t wrong, not matter how much you wish it were true. When a woman has a relationship with a man, a man has a relationship with a woman. Man+Woman=relationship. A+B=C.

If one guy has 50 relationships, then somewhere 50 women have had relationships with him. Visa versa for a female having 50 relationships.

It’s impossible to be wrong.

You are simply confusing yourself to justify your belief (just because you believe you are unlovable...there's a plethora of men out there thanking you for your attitude, and getting with lots of women)

My family was dirt poor. I've never asked for or had a loan from them (they wouldn't have money to lend me).

Jealousy again?


Jealousy again?

Seriously, jealousy is a toxic attitude (toxic for you that it). If you need to understand why - just imagine if my brother was jealous of abled bodied men...

...it's not fair to become quadraplegic while attempting a helicopter rescue on a heart patient. It's not fair that he'll never be able to hold his wife again, nor have sex with her ever again, nor ever again throw his kids in the air. It's not fair that he can gone from the provider to being helplessly in need of help. It's not fair that he can't play sport anymore. It's not fair that he can't just go out with his friend. It's not fair that he is virtually physically helpless and must rely on others to wipe his backside clean after he is medicated to allow him to defecate. It's not fair that he has to have a catheter so that he doesn't constantly pee himself. It's not fair that he can't feed himself. It's not fair that he doesn't have freedom to do the things he loved doing. It's not fair that his friends can come & go and visit him as they please, but he can never easily visit them anymore.

That's just the 'it's not fairs' I can think of off the top of my head. Can you imagine how he would become mentally if he was jealous of able bodied men?

Jealous of people who had more than him...of people who could do what he couldn't...of people with more advantages than him?

The thing is - physically he could even be jealous of you (but he's not that way inclined - you could tell him of your exploits and he'd laugh and say 'good on you' - if they didn't hurt anyone that is)...but I guarantee that he would never be jealous of your attitude (not in a nasty way) purely because he knows it's unhealthy and leads to a poorer life.

Make the best of what you've got (what you've got is your situation in life...make the best of your attitude of it, make the best of the skills you can develop, make the best of your beliefs, make the best of your interactions, make the best of your self esteem, make the best of your learning and your achievements, make the best of your time...etc)

Make the best of what you've got.

Out of the 202 people across those two islands, 103 of them have a biological guarantee they can pass their genes on if they so choose. 101 of those people are women 2 are men!

That's math at work!!!!

Almost true, and at no point did I disagree with that.

I was speaking in terms of relationships -which is what you previously focused on. Now you are focusing on sex & procreation...is that because you are trying to find a new avenue where to justify your views?

The almost true is because some women cannot have children. They too could poison their life with jealousy, or they could make the best of what they've got.

Also I applaud your brother for making the best with what he has. I can only imagine what he's been through. I think it shows how strong he is to be so resilient, but the fact remains he does have support! In fact he has a wife AND kids!!!

He must take some small measure of contentment in knowing that he has IN FACT accomplished that biological goal of passing his genes on. And IN FACT he's also been lucky enough to be married. Even if the rest of life isn't the same, at least he knows he left his mark.

Alright...so we are seeing you jumping from one argument to another. Do you understand the reason that you are doing this?

And would you swap lives with him? Or would you prefer to be normal bodied, with the future chance at having a wife & kids?

Don't forget that you'd have 30 - 40 years of quadraplegia in front of you.

It's all the same argument!!!!

Women, life having meaning, souls, selfishness, procreation, nature vs. nurture, ect, everything!! They're all intertwined!!! Because men and women are halves of a singular entity called society!!!

I wouldn't swap lives with him. I'm obviously not someone who could handle it. Your brother did get to experience being married, and having kids, and does appear to have a good support system. All I'm saying is that helps.

You jumped from relationships to sex & procreation (which are definately NOT the same argument).

I agreed with the maths of your change of direction, except I point out the flaw that not all women can have children.

You then jump to my brother being married and having children, obviously to point out that you don't have that, and that must help...there's no reason turn the focus to this except to continue to 'justify' your attitude.

So yes, you are jumping all over the place, and no, they aren't the same argument - because they have different flaws.


And it would all be meaningless if he became jealous of able bodied men. There have been plenty of people who've had disabling accidents, who had a wife & children, who's attitude sucked, and they lost their wife and children too.

There have been plenty of people who lost all their friends after an accident because their attitude changed. While in ICU, there was a fireman there in his late 40's. He broke his neck while diving into a murky creek - he said the banks were steep and he thought it kept going down into the water.

He had a great attitude, and his reasoning was 'no one will want to visit me if I sink into misery'

"You jumped from relationships to sex & procreation (which are definately NOT the same argument)."

The first thing I said about myself in this thread is that my dream was to be a father and husband. How exactly am I jumping?

"While in ICU, there was a fireman there in his late 40's. ...He had a great attitude, and his reasoning was 'no one will want to visit me if I sink into misery'"

Changing your attitude to avoid social un-attractiveness, for the simple reason of pleasing other people seems to speak DIRECTLY against what you were telling me further back in this thread. That story might carry more weight if you'd told me he actually WASN'T miserable despite his condition...

You do see what you try here - you try to find every intellectual flaw so that you can justify to yourself why you keep yourself miserable...

...why don't you start looking at the positives in life, like 'so what you're telling me is he fought hard to maintain his attitude because it was both good for him personally, and people enjoyed visiting him for it. He struggled to keep his chin up because he understood the futility of self pity, and the dark despair that would come with it if he gave in to it. But because he's self depreciating, he only told the side of the story that 'I do it for other people'...

Australians, in terms of congratulating themselves, rarely do so.

Even if say he wasn't being self depreciating...there is also another difference here - your issues are purely mental, and they are something you can do something about.

He was just facing a HUGE loss in life, a HUGE change in life, a , with physical issues he could do nothing about. From being able bodied to being helpless. In his case, ANY reason to keep his chin up is a good starting point. Afterwards he could start looking for other reasons that life was worth living.

Seriously, you were trying to compare a man in an ICU who has just suffered huge loss, just had a huge change of life in finding out he is facing a life of quadraplegia...you were trying to compare his mental needs with your situation, and expecting to be held to the same standard, or even have the same mental needs as you?

People who are imminently suicidal are dealt with differently to people who are suffering depression. people who are in shock are dealt with differently again.

Have a look at where you've come from, and see that life is a journey taken steps at a time, and that the first steps aren't the same as the last steps...then perhaps you'll understand why for him, being at that stage at that time was fine...while for you, your issues are not 'shock' nor 'change adjustment' nor 'loss'...but long term issues within yourself.

Lastly, he didn't ask me for help, not would I have offered him help without him asking. He offered that, and I accepted such. The story was one that -for whatever reason - he chose to face life as well as he could. Whether I consider it perfect or not is irrelevant in the face that he was trying.

yes he does

"Out of the 202 people across those two islands, 103 of them have a biological guarantee they can pass their genes on if they so choose. 101 of those people are women 2 are men!

This is simply a fact. That some people have setbacks that they can overcome mentally doesn't change the FACT that the female gender has a HUGELY unfair advantage in life that they take every opportunity to capitalize on.

Women oppress men.

In relation to my previous post - I was rather tired when I wrote it. Summarised - the had just gone through a massive change in life, and just after that change and while still in ICU - maintaining an attitude for others is acceptable. Long term, he would also need to maintain his attitude for himself, or he'd slide down into depression (long term just for others is never enough... it also has to be for ourselves)

In relation to your scenario :
- firstly - it's an almost impossible scenario. I daresay it has NEVER happened in the history of the human race.
- secondly - that is NOT your situation.
So using it to attempt to justify your views is simply ridiculous.

In relationship terms "Women oppress men" is so ridiculous a view that it doesn't really need any argument against it.

That others have an 'unfair' advantage (and I'm not saying I agree with this, simply because the advantages and disadvantages of both sexes seem to equal out) is meaningless (unless you choose to give it your own personal meaning)...hence I pointed out the HUGE unfairness my brother faces, with graciousness...while you choose jealousy (your perceived unfairnesses are miniscule compared to his, but guess what - he has never once complained. It's always surprised me, and I can only guess that he recognises it's simply pointless to complain about something that can't be changed - I've never asked him, and probably never will)

The difference in mental health is obvious, as is the difference in the amount of emotional turmoil, as is the difference in levels of happines, as is the difference in quality of life.....you hate your depression while blinding yourself to it's obvious cause. And you feed continue to feed it like a well loved pet.


It is an attitude thing. Find all the philosophical bullshit you like to justify your own sense of victimhood... because in the end it comes down to your attitude. You attitude depends relies on what you are feeding it.

Your views remind me of a kid sitting on a see-saw seeing his imaginary friend sitting on the other end, and wondering why the see saw isn't working properly (ie. why he isn't going up and down)...it's because his friend is imaginary - so there is no counterbalance on the other end. In your life, your views are so dominated by negative aspects that your see saw can't lift you up...and even whle your imaginary friend (the positive guy) sits on the other end...you just sit there on plank on the ground end and pile sandbags (of negativity) on your end while complaining that the see saw isn't working as it should. It's not a surprise to anyone but you that it isn't working.

Change your attitude, change your beliefs, change your way of looking at the world - to a more positive view. Currently you actively seek the negative but make little to no attempt to seek the positive. Find balance by actively seeking the positive too, and acknowledging and finding the value in the positives.

As I said - you should go and read 'Mans Search for Meaning' by Vicktor Frankl. He was locked up in Auschwitz for years, never knowing if he was going to leave alive. The level of unfairness in his life (locked up for being a Jew) was many times worse than your life (and that's an understatement)...and he maintains that they could strip him of everything, his health, his life, his freedom...but couldn't strip him of the attitude with which he chose to face his circumstance - only he himself (Vicktor Frankl himself) could strip himself of his attitude to life.

The survival of a man's lineage is dependent on the whims of beings who once a month (bare minimum) are unable to think (and often act) in a way that follows the laws of logic.

You can tell me it's my attitude to change. You can twist this around to being about me not being as bad off as your brother, or the fireman, or whoever.

I'm not the only male in the world who is aware of how women are.

Women have the odds stacked in their favor. Fact.

How many support groups, and self help books, and tv shows (Oprah nation!) are their that are geared towards women? Now how many of those same things are out their that are focused at supporting men's issues?

Men have to "recognise it's simply pointless to complain about something that can't be changed" and settle for whatever crappy life is just OK enough that they can live it without offing themselves. (Nature vs. nurture, i.e. men must be stoic).

Women get to make choices.

Men are death row prisoners on suicide watch lying to themselves, telling themselves that the bread and water they're having for dinner is fillet mignon and pumpkin pie. Women are the jailers.

There is no twist - you are NOT as bad off as my brother, nor the fireman. There is an obvious comparison in your attitudes and whining when compared to people who are much worse off than you...who are still happy.

See, the problem is - you can't change genetics, so you are railing against things that will never change. Women have advantages, men have advantages.

The politic landscape, which you are now bringing into the picture, where you've only previously been arguing about the relationship landscape IS skewed heavily in favour of women in many areas...but the political landscape has virtually NOTHING to do with what you've been arguing about previously.

That's a rather sickly view, and extreme.

So...after all your arguments come to naught...after the vast majority of the world also acknowledges the positive aspects of life...you start getting more and more extreme in your statements...why?

Is this the stage where you get desperate and try to push people away so that you can maintain your self deceptive world?

It certainly doesn't change that your views and attitudes are what keep you depressed. It doesn't change that those attitudes help defeat what you so desperately crave.

Again - who would ever want to live with someone who hated them? No sane woman would. Such hatred by its very self defeats your stated desire for a relationship. Why do you hold to it so desperately then?

And why do you want to be miserable? Why do you keep making your self spout stuff that strengthens your misery? How does it benefit you?

you are one sad sorry douche

what kind of man hosts a multi page pity party

Michael - I just realised that your nonsense IS in fact, getting more and more extreme. This is obviously a self defense mechanism. It is here that you need to actually talk to someone, face to face...

These are just words on a page. You don't have any real investment in them. And once you put walls up like you are now doing - it takes a real expert (or just plain - yourself) to open doors and replace them with healthy attitudes.

You can be helped, but first, like a drug addict - you actually have to admit to yourself that you have a problem...and I don't just mean superfluous surface admissions...but admissions deep down inside you. Your whole being has to recognise there is a problem - including that part of you that you generally hide away that drives you to do this. that 'monster' is surfacing to defend 'you' (or rather, it's territory). Only if you convince that 'part of you' with the rest of you...will you finally actually start to heal yourself.

ps. the brain actually contains multiple competing parts that function almost as their own unique organs, but work all together - hence we can have competing desires at the same time.

The other thing is...you have to be interested in doing. So far you've only shown words so far (even if you said you half heartedly did one or two things and got discouraged...real desire to get better - persists). When are you going to do, and keep doing?