How to respond to this argument against sanctioning Iran?

@TuringEquivalent,

I don't see where it follows... All they have to do is look ahead, as the capitalist can never do, to a time when the fuel will run dry to look forward to some replacement for their lost fuel...Those people actually have a history... We do not have enough history to have a sense of time, or the fact that civilizations ebb and flow, and often fail... That place has seen it all, over and over again...

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@Fido,

Fido, Are you ******* retarded?

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@TuringEquivalent,

Why don't you offer your own opinion Turning? Your threads appear to be places where your ego reigns, and others aren't welcome. Why would anyone bother answering you?

1 Reply

@vikorr,

vikorr wrote:

Why don't you offer your own opinion Turning? Your threads appear to be places where your ego reigns, and others aren't welcome. Why would anyone bother answering you?

What is my ego? I feel ******* piss off about the US government wanting to either starve people, and invade countries. I am ******* mad, so what do I do? I can 't do **** about it, and it pissed me off. So I am going to write about it, ok?

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@TuringEquivalent,

Iran is in direct violation of international law. They are enriching uranium, and is NOT for cancer isotopes. I doubt very much that Iran has the bomb, yet. But when or if they do, like N. Korea, what steps would you have the UN and all other interested parties on earth do?
Sanctions could force this weak government out. If the people rebel then there is a chance for meaningful dialogue. Here you have a rogue government, that is failing its people on every front. The Rial has fallen, prices for food and other necessities have risen, and like other countries in the region, when you can't feed your family, you rise up.
Sanctions hurt the poor, the average person, they don't do much, except sometimes make bad dictators rich. Eventually, though, as witnessed of late, the people won't take it and will rebel.

Right now, the Iranian government is trying to look tough to its own people, they are playing a game. If the people buy into it, and believe in the propaganda, the Iranian government, might just get through this bad patch. However, they've got a lousy economic track record and it's only getting worse.
So, like every weak government, and some others, we are all versed in... When they have catastrophic problems, they fall back on finding a scapegoat to blame all their problems on. Iran hasn't been this screwed up since the Iran-Iraq war. And their president et al.. are hoping that if they feed the people enough bravado and bullshit, they can build the bomb and then, we are all fucked.

I get that you hate the USA, but this is not about the USA. This is another potential war, or cluster-**** in the middle east. The straight of Hormuz is nowhere near the USA, so the US can afford to make demands, unlike say, their neighbours who fear getting vaporized.
Time, hopefully a short bit of time, will tell, whether or not the Iranian people will have had enough. Until then, the rest of the world can only put pressure on a weak but dangerous government.
And for the time being, that's better than war.

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@Ceili,

^ What can I say, naive? US foreign policy, or any state policy work at the level of national interest. It is not about being altruistic, and spreading ideals around. US foreign policy is exactly the neoconservative foreign policy-the projection of power, and hegemony. Historically, there are many cases of Israel, and US government try to overthrown governments like killing their leaders, or bombing innocent people to instigate a war. People say one thing, but do exactly the oppose. Not stupid **** like what you say. US is just trying to make false claims, starve the people, and ultimately, force the hands of Iran, so that the neo-cons can have their war.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

Stupid **** I say?? Pot meet kettle.
So in order not to say stupid ****, I should agree with your stupid **** eh?
Perhaps, if you don't want to read my stupid ****, you could read a newspaper or listen to the experts, perhaps an Iranian.. Then maybe you wouldn't believe the stupid **** you write. Maybe that's too much.
I'll remember not to respond to your stupid **** again.

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Stupid **** I say?? Pot meet kettle.
So in order not to say stupid ****, I should agree with your stupid **** eh?
Perhaps, if you don't want to read my stupid ****, you could read a newspaper or listen to the experts, perhaps an Iranian.. Then maybe you wouldn't believe the stupid **** you write. Maybe that's too much.
I'll remember not to respond to your stupid **** again.

Actually, most of the I say is standard knowledge from the "experts". You are not a political science major, are you? I bet you don 't know that, because you obvious don 't know what the **** you are talking about. I read all those "experts" from Yale to Chicago. Foreign affairs, and politics is about power, you naive woman. You get sensitive because I called you "stupid ****".. You got to have thicker skin. Not a good trait to have, and rather common among women.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

So you're a misogynist too. Good to know.
Show me the quotes from your "experts" **** wad.
I'd love to see the idiots you get your information from. Or is it just a bunch of anti-american morons who love to puke out conspiracy theories as well.
Don't bother answering, as I won't bother reading anymore of your stupid ****.

1 Reply

@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

So you're a misogynist too. Good to know.
Show me the quotes from your "experts" **** wad.
I'd love to see the idiots you get your information from. Or is it just a bunch of anti-american morons who love to puke out conspiracy theories as well.
Don't bother answering, as I won't bother reading anymore of your stupid ****.

I am trying to figure out what exactly you want me to "prove". Do you want me to prove to you that governments do lie, and countries do things out of interest rather than "ideals"? That imperialism, and economic/cultural imperialism exist? That economic warfare exist? That countries bully? What do you want me to prove? Be more specific.

What is anti-American? what the hell is that even mean? If American soldiers invade countries, make other countries poorer, kill foreigners. If I am pro-America, does that mean I have to accept these unjust policies? I don 't hate America, but I wish to live in a just world where American, and foreigners can be more equal. Equality of opportunity, and Justice should be for everyone.
I believe hard work, and personal merits should be valued for foreigners, just as for Americans. That Iranians and the people which American called their "enemy" are just people, living their lives, and trying to better themselves. Instead of demonize whole people, we should look at the world from their point of view instead of always starting wars.

1 Reply

@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

Fido, Are you ******* retarded?

Perhaps... Mostly a person of extremes... High average, just below genius IQ, but slow with verbal processing, and for that very reason I avoid school and read... A little dislexic as well, which really hurts my basic math... I do okay with the reasoning associated with Algebra and the like, and used to do well in Geometry; but need a calculator to do math...How about yourself???

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@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

vikorr wrote:

Why don't you offer your own opinion Turning? Your threads appear to be places where your ego reigns, and others aren't welcome. Why would anyone bother answering you?

What is my ego? I feel ******* piss off about the US government wanting to either starve people, and invade countries. I am ******* mad, so what do I do? I can 't do **** about it, and it pissed me off. So I am going to write about it, ok?

If you wish to change the world, as the Muslims some times say: First change yourself... That will give you a sense of how difficult it is to actually change behavior and thought in others... From my experience, the ways people change are through emotion... When people feel differently, they are different... People seem to be able to entertain contradictions in their conclusions almost indefinitly; and if these contradictions are pointed out, then they become very defensive...Art some times helps people to become aware of their cotradictions without putting up a defense against them... People who are demoralized cannot act in a moral fashion... This land has long lived off the bounty we could squeeze out of foreign people, but now our rich do not want us to have what they feel entitled to... We must live within our means, and this is impossible because we are defending US interests in what has become an American empire... While we are defending US interests, we see no benefit to it... Capital is exported with capitalism, and then we must buy back with less money what we once produced and exported... We have no future, and we are trapped in the past, and that is really a false notion of how the past was, of America as the champion of liberty and saving the world...It is all nonsense... What it comes down to is that capitalism does not work without markets, and we have become a market against our will as so many countries have... There is no liberty, and no democracy, or we would change things for the better... What we have is a lot of angry, frustrated, and frightened people seeing their lives going down the toilet with the American dream, blaming the world, and wishing our misery back on to the shoulds of all the world's wogs... We are demoralized... We are unable to face the suffering we have dealt... We want to punish the world as once we did, and now we cannot afford to.

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@Ceili,

In defense of injustice, and of Israel, we are saying they cannot have the bomb... In fact; we have the ability to give them Nuclear Power Technology that will not breed plutonium... What we really want is a free hand in the East without any damned towel heads telling Israel how to treat Muslims, or telling us which tyrants we can support who will sell the oil of Islam cheap to us for the means of suppressing rebelion... No one dared tell Israel they could not have the bomb, and it is an open secret that they have bombs, and everyone know they will turn the middle east to toast if they feel seriously threatened... Considering the hell we forced on the people of Iran, is it not fair, and understandable that they should have the right of self defense??? I do not like any body having a bomb, and the fact is that when everyone is broke from the cost of universal war, that it becomes ever more likely that people will resort to nukes instead of diplomacy... Iran really wants to feel secure and really wants to be taken seriously... How effin hard would it be to make them feel secure, and take them seriously??? Brinkmanship is not the answer...Brinkmanship has put more countries over the edge than it has saved...

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@Ceili,

Ceili wrote:

Stupid **** I say?? Pot meet kettle.
So in order not to say stupid ****, I should agree with your stupid **** eh?
Perhaps, if you don't want to read my stupid ****, you could read a newspaper or listen to the experts, perhaps an Iranian.. Then maybe you wouldn't believe the stupid **** you write. Maybe that's too much.
I'll remember not to respond to your stupid **** again.

Celi; Persia has a lot of people and a lot of opinions... The fact is that Iran has a lot of good reasons to feel threatened, and as a result, the outside world has reason to fear Iran... I am sure they can be extreme; but the people as a whole are anything but extreme... More than that, they are intelligent and industrious enough to have our respect, and Islam as a whole is our most natural support against what most would consider our true enemy of international communism... Don't take this to mean I agree with all they do, because I do not agree... Some times a little bit of respect can go a long way toward making a sustainable peace, and this is something we have not tried...Ever

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@TuringEquivalent,

TuringEquivalent wrote:

Ceili wrote:

So you're a misogynist too. Good to know.
Show me the quotes from your "experts" **** wad.
I'd love to see the idiots you get your information from. Or is it just a bunch of anti-american morons who love to puke out conspiracy theories as well.
Don't bother answering, as I won't bother reading anymore of your stupid ****.

I am trying to figure out what exactly you want me to "prove". Do you want me to prove to you that governments do lie, and countries do things out of interest rather than "ideals"? That imperialism, and economic/cultural imperialism exist? That economic warfare exist? That countries bully? What do you want me to prove? Be more specific.

What is anti-American? what the hell is that even mean? If American soldiers invade countries, make other countries poorer, kill foreigners. If I am pro-America, does that mean I have to accept these unjust policies? I don 't hate America, but I wish to live in a just world where American, and foreigners can be more equal. Equality of opportunity, and Justice should be for everyone.
I believe hard work, and personal merits should be valued for foreigners, just as for Americans. That Iranians and the people which American called their "enemy" are just people, living their lives, and trying to better themselves. Instead of demonize whole people, we should look at the world from their point of view instead of always starting wars.

The ideals America puts forward are not the ideas that America goes to war over... It is because we do not have all of the good things for which this nation was established that we are forever taking our good times out of everyone else's poverty... The America established by the Declaration is not the America established by the United States Constitution... I hold with the declaration, and I say the constitution was always a ruse to confuse the people, and allow their exploitation, and the expropriation of the commonwealth, and that the tyranny we have exported with violence is one we have little suffered here only because this has been a country rich in resources and intelligence... But this country is being broken by the cost borne alike by the world of keeping our rich rich, and of continually adding to their number...

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I can understand why Iran would want to be a nuclear power, western countries don't invade or threaten countries who have nuclear weapons. Granted it is scary to think that a another country has nuclear weapons. But I can understand their desire for them.

Pakistan has nuclear weapons and if we examine the Osma Bin Laden incident, it is clear they have sympathies with AQ and other terrorist groups. We have carried out drone attacks and killed Osma Bin Laden in Pakistan but on the surface it is with cooperation with the Pakistani leadership. Lately the drone attacks have been less because of the worsening relations with the Pakistani leadership. They have a voice because they have nuclear weapons. It is quite frankly more scary thinking of Pakistan with nuclear weapons given all the AQ and militants located on the Pakistani borders who have no love for the US and have demonstrated a willingness to kill as many as they can.

CIA has suspended drone attacks in Pakistan, U.S. officials say

Quote:

December 23, 2011|By Ken Dilanian, Los Angeles Times
Reporting from Washington —

In an effort to mend badly frayed relations with Pakistan, the CIA has suspended drone missile strikes on gatherings of low-ranking militants believed to be involved in cross-border attacks on U.S. troops or facilities in Afghanistan, current and former U.S. officials say.

1 Reply

@revelette,

Quote:

Considering the hell we forced on the people of Iran, is it not fair, and understandable that they should have the right of self defense???

The only problem with this quote is that the Iranian PM openly states that he wants Israel wiped off the face of the earth - that's not one iota about self defense. And it's not an uncommon Arabic desire either.

The problem with any islamic nation is that fundamentalists (now being called extremists, mostly because of ignorance in the West), while usually a small %, are always the most active, and always trying to gain power. It is a fundamental of Islam to convert by the sword, unless faced with a greater military power. Ie. with an islamic nation, you never know when some nutbag will come to power and blast everything to kingdom come in the name of religion.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Actually that is not my quote.

Secondly, the quote you refer to is mistranslated.

Quote:

"Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to wipe Israel off the map because no such idiom exists in Persian," remarked Juan Cole, a Middle East specialist at the University of Michigan and critic of American policy who has argued that the Iranian president was misquoted. "He did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse." Since Iran has not "attacked another country aggressively for over a century," he said in an e-mail exchange, "I smell the whiff of war propaganda."

Jonathan Steele, a columnist for the left-leaning Guardian newspaper in London, recently laid out the case this way: "The Iranian president was quoting an ancient statement by Iran's first Islamist leader, the late Ayatollah Khomeini, that 'this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time,' just as the Shah's regime in Iran had vanished. He was not making a military threat. He was calling for an end to the occupation of Jerusalem at some point in the future. The 'page of time' phrase suggests he did not expect it to happen soon."

source

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The Persians ( the peole of Iran, the Farsi) are not Arabs, they don't speak Arabic (although educated Persians undoubtely read Arabic, that being the language of th Quran) and they are not even confessionally related to the majority of Arabic-speaking people. Iran is the home of Shi'ism, and the majority of Arabic-speaking people are Sunni Muslims.

The hatred of Israel among Arabic speaking people has an entirely different origin than the hatred of Israel in Iran. The democratically elected Prime Minister of Iran was overthrown in a coup instigated by MI6 and engineered by Central Intelligence, in 1953. After the coup, Israeli Mossad was brought in to set up a state security service for the Shah. That service was SAVAK. As time went on, Mossad became more an more involved in SAVAK operations, including kidnappings, torture and murder. The mullahs who currently rule Iran remember SAVAK, and many of them suffered at the hands of SAVAK and Mossad agents, or lost family members to them. If it weren't for idiotic policies toward Iran, and provocations such as the military exercises which are to be carried out with American and Israeli forces, the hatred of Israel would eventually fade away; the people who remember SAVAK and Mossad's involvement in their operations is decreasing over time.

However, sanctions agains Iran make a good deal of sense. To ignore their nuclear programs would be taken by hotheads among the mullahs and the Revolutionary Guard as western weakness. Sanctions are a means to keep the pressure on them without actually taking military measures.

Confusing Persians and Arabic-seaking people is the kind of stupidity which assures that we rarely do anything right in a region about which the American people remain resolutely ignorant.

1 Reply

How to respond to this argument against sanctioning Iran?

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