How to respond to this argument against sanctioning Iran?

Fido,

Anti-jewish then. Seriously, why do you pretend you are not?

Lots of aspects of other societies we can find distasteful without resorting the drivel you produced in your previous posts.

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to respect human life

Which should be the point of all this, except people keep exagerating issues, bringing up irrelevant points to 'strengthen their argument', using prejudiced language, and in your case, - trivialising genocides...and calling for human respect.

I'm disgusted enough to use the "Ignore" function. And to think I had actually been following this guy!

What gets me is the way it sneaks up, some people are out and out bigots, what you see is what you get. You know what you're dealing with. Others seem quite reasonable, you chat away, they make a few valid points, then out of the blue they something unbelievably offensive. It's not so much the bigotry, but the fact that you were dealing with them as if they weren't bigotted. It knocks you back a bit.

Re: wmwcjr (Post 4863782)
What gets me is the way it sneaks up, some people are out and out bigots, what you see is what you get. You know what you're dealing with. Others seem quite reasonable, you chat away, they make a few valid points, then out of the blue they something unbelievably offensive. It's not so much the bigotry, but the fact that you were dealing with them as if they weren't bigotted. It knocks you back a bit.

izzythepush wrote:

Re: wmwcjr (Post 4863782)
What gets me is the way it sneaks up, some people are out and out bigots, what you see is what you get. You know what you're dealing with. Others seem quite reasonable, you chat away, they make a few valid points, then out of the blue they something unbelievably offensive. It's not so much the bigotry, but the fact that you were dealing with them as if they weren't bigotted. It knocks you back a bit.

I must say I was quite surprised. I never would have guessed that someone like Fido (with his cute, funny username and "proletarian" views) would harbor anti-Semitic attitudes. In fact, I'm shocked; but I really shouldn't be, since the enemies of the Jewish people have spanned the political spectrum from the far right to the far left. (And for anyone else reading this, no, I'm not Jewish. )

Every body who does not like what Israel does,............is an anti Semite

To be correct; what I have is a great antagonism toward Jewish culture

I do not think it is unfair to ask of them that they give to the united states their full loyalty, especially when entering government service

They can be, in their way less crude, but in the same vein as they Gypsies, who justify their theft

Sorry world; but I do not like people around me protected by law who are impossible to trust... Join this society, follow our rules, love your fellow citizens, give loyalty to this nation; and leave the past behind, or get the hell out...

The fact that they are exhausting the water supply, and seeding enmity everywhere around them is just tough... If they want to call it home, they should start by making friends of the neighbors...

Do you think some Jew grocer in the Eastern Market cares if he screws some pickle farmer??? What can the pickle farmer do to him; except hate???

All those people who engender hate for Jews, justified or not, endanger my own flesh and blood, and that is no small matter with me

By going back to the 1939 borders? The indefensible ones right? With enemies surrounding them on all sides, right?

Or perhaps by letting the palenstinians continue to launch rockets over their border without retaliation, right? Given the enmity in the region, I wouldn't be surprised if the Palestinians kept launching them for the next 2 decades. You make it seem like a simple thing - to make friends, or even just peace, with a peoples that hate you.

With the most aggressively racist government ever in power, the Israeli occupation authorities have been prosecuting and imprisoning Palestinian children at will, mostly on bogus charges such as throwing stones at Israeli military vehicles and endangering the security and safety of the Israeli occupation forces in the West Bank.

According to the Israeli human rights group B'tselem, nearly 100 per cent of Palestinian children charged with stone-throwing are convicted owing to overwhelming pressure to plea bargain. Only one Palestinian minor out of 853 charged with stone-throwing between the years 2005 and 2010 was acquitted.

There's a good reason why there's a lot of antaganism towards Israel from its neighbours. The occupation of the West back is illegal and brutal. There are considerably more Palestinians killed by Israeli Security forces than Israeli's killed by Palestinian activists. The Israelis tend to break most of the ceasefires, and (mostly ineffective) rocket launches are symptomatic of a desperate need to fight back against a brutal and illegal occupation.

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Every body who does not like what Israel does,............is an anti Semite

Bullshit. You are the one making anti-semitic comments. Members of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign are not anti-semitic. Anyone who makes anti-semitic remarks is thrown out on their ear. There are prominent Jewish supporters of the campaign, Stephen Fry, Alexei Sayle and Gerald Kauffman MP to name a few. It's quite possible to want justice for the Palestinian people without hating Jews. You may not be able to function without irrational hatred, but most people can.

vikorr wrote:

Actually Izzy - I wouldn't make an issue with highly offensive remarks, just because they are offensive - you can be very offensive and just be telling the truth. I do have a negative view on unsupportable diatribe.

Fido - you're now trying to come across as reasonable, and using history over 2000 years old to justify your reasoning - that is just plain ridiculous.[/quote[quote]

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] Sorry; but I do not see how they have changed... If you look only a genesis; you see a lot of lessons about behavior where the head strong were chastized, if not by God, then by their fellow... Judging by later books, I doubt that they got the message... There is no argument from me about the resiliency of their culture, or about their cultures contribution to world culture generally... They prize education, and in hanging onto their culture as though a rock in a rage, their children must learn two languages, and two cultures which is to learn something significant about all language and culture... Because so many are numerologists they are made for math and science... All I would ask of them is to give that last full measure of devotion to this country and forsake all others... Israel is a single place they once bought to have a grave for Sarah, and you can hear her name in the name of the country and of the nation of her children, and all the rest they bought with violence... It is a curse to them, and we have made it a curse to us... If they had ever once given each other justice in that land they would not have lost it...

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To be correct; what I have is a great antagonism toward Jewish culture

That would be towards the Jews then. Sure you can make exceptions, but any you don't know that you see behaving like your view of 'their culture' you'll group together.

There are a lot of cultures I do not much care for including my own... We all have defects and we all suffer our defects and cause others to suffer them... There are a lot of things I admire about Jews personally and culturally... What I dislike about the Jews generally is certainly shared by the protestants since they turned their religion back toward Judaism as much as Paul turned it away... I do not care who anyone is, or where they come from; but I would not think myself human if I judged them before hand as individuals based upon what I know, like, or dislike about their culture.... That is true for all, and I never assume a person is a friend simply because he looks and acts like me... I am guarded without being prejudicial toward all...

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I do not think it is unfair to ask of them that they give to the united states their full loyalty, especially when entering government service

More rubbish - everyone entering govt service has multiple loyalties. They can be fully loyal to the US and be loyal to their own people.

So they identify not just as americans, but as jewish americans, just as you have american negros, and native americans. The major issue you have then is that the Jews are more organised, more successful, and therefore more powerful. That they use this power to help others of their people that they identify with is not against Amercian values - America forms alliances, and it's strongest alliances are with white english speaking nations, and then with European nations. So the giving of loyalty to peoples you have an affinity with is not against American morals - just yours.

In one sense at least, most people have come to this land as failures with the desire to strike it rich, and return to the old country and right some wrongs... I have seen it with people like myself, with some Irish in them and a few bucks going back to blow their dough and look big... With Muslims and Jews it is forever different... Their eyes are always turned to that place of their religion, and they never find life good among the blunt skulls... The old joke the Jews once told about a guy selling Arab brains for half the price of Jewish brains because the Arab one had never been used is a good example of the sort of contempt Jews held for Arabs... The fact is that there is nothing wrong with the heads of either group, and that the only way to account for their irracibility and intractability is culture... As we should all do; and yet, to this land, and to this people you should give you first, and final loyalty... Ireland and Germany live in my for sure, but so does America, and the ideas for which we have fought, and worked... We can save the world from tyranny if we can first establish freedom here; but I would not ask a Jew to help me fight for freedom, or an Arab... They are more inclined to work with tyrants and live with them than to resist them... It is cultural...

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They can be, in their way less crude, but in the same vein as they Gypsies, who justify their theft

How odd that you single out Jews here, rather than the much much more collectively massive American coorporations that have for the last 50 years raped much of the 3rd world. Why, greed seems almost the american thing to do.

I do not like corporations either... I do not like any group which combines against the people under the protection of our laws... But; this country was established by the rich and the rich were the first to benefit... This government did not take on the rights of the Federation, but it did assume all of its debt which was held by the rich or speculators, and that was only the beginning... The thing is, that some time organizations are forced on the people in defense of their rights from corporations or government, and some times organizations are formed to take advantage of people and government... If the government would do its job, no corporation unwilling and unable to demonstrate a pure public purpose would be allowed to exist... Why should the people accept any exploitation... Why should the people accept these groups running the government and dragging us into war???

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Sorry world; but I do not like people around me protected by law who are impossible to trust... Join this society, follow our rules, love your fellow citizens, give loyalty to this nation; and leave the past behind, or get the hell out...

And you trust your politicians?

What rules have the jewish americans broken? What loyalty have they not shown? Why should they not retain their heritage?

Why should they love you when you don't love them? What is to say they don't love the american people (just because they love their own people, doesn't mean they don't love America)? Don't you have the KKK? Neo Nazi's? Rednecks? American Negro's who hate whites? American born Muslims who hate other Americans? Rich who hate trailer trash? West side who hate East side? Slum dwellers who hate the rich. It's incredibly hypocritical to hold Jews to a much higher standard than so many other elements of American society.

Again - seriously - do you not see the ridiculous position your arguments put yourself in?

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The fact that they are exhausting the water supply, and seeding enmity everywhere around them is just tough... If they want to call it home, they should start by making friends of the neighbors...

By going back to the 1939 borders? The indefensible ones right? With enemies surrounding them on all sides, right?

Or perhaps by letting the palenstinians continue to launch rockets over their border without retaliation, right? Given the enmity in the region, I wouldn't be surprised if the Palestinians kept launching them for the next 2 decades. You make it seem like a simple thing - to make friends, or even just peace, with a peoples that hate you.

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Do you think some Jew grocer in the Eastern Market cares if he screws some pickle farmer??? What can the pickle farmer do to him; except hate???

Incredible - in my region, we have dairy farmers who are slowly going out of business because the large supermarkets screw them over at contract time - but there's not been one mention of hate. So yes - there are other ways of dealing with such, other than hating a people.

Besides...any Jew who runs food markets, who screwed over farmers to such an extent that they went out of business, would not get any vegetables and would screw himself over. By the way - Farmers themselves can (and do) form collectives.

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All those people who engender hate for Jews, justified or not, endanger my own flesh and blood, and that is no small matter with me

If that's the case, you are shooting yourself in your own foot - because the examples you use, the wording you use - is all designed to manipulate people into hating Jews.

Alright - I think I'll stop there : I'm too disgusted with having to pull your diatribe apart.

Funnily enough, I don't think I care one way or another whether Israel reformed in the first place, but now that it's there (and the forming of it produced such hatred, some rightfully so, some due to Islamic views of Islamic lands, and some for other various reasons) they do have a right to a defensible border, and to protect themselves. Other issues are debatable.

They also have a right to belong to a culture, whatever lands they live in. They have a right to be successful, and a right to be organised. They have a right to patronise their own establishments, and they have a right to look after their interests politically. While I'm not from the US - I recognise these as US values. The Jews just do it better than most other american organisations.

I think you mistake my position on Israel - that it exists in a complex situation, with provocative actions on both sides. I've little doubt there are many competing interests, both for and against peace, and they don't work together - on either side. I've seen Israel make serious overtures for peace, which were rejected by Arafat, and I've seen missiles launched during peace talks by the Palestinians...and I've seen Israel retalitate in much greater poportion.

The greater force used by Israel is unfortunate, and provides great provocation...and yet I also understand why they feel the need to do so. It is almost a catch 22.

The Israeli govt is also not 'the most aggresively racist govt ever in power'.

The ultra-Orthodox network that runs the Beit Yaakov girls school in the West Bank settlement of Immanuel must pay NIS 5,000 for every day it continues to violate an August court order requiring it to eliminate any vestige of ethnic discrimination at the school, the High Court of Justice ruled Wednesday.

Seventy-four girls, mostly of Ashkenazi origin, have been studying in an adjacent unauthorized school since the court, along with the Education Ministry, called on the school to stop holding separate classes for Ashkenazi and Sephardi students.



Wednesday's ruling came in response to a petition by the head of Noar Kahalacha, an organization that combats anti-Sephardi discrimination, accusing the school of contempt of court. The High Court said the school had authorized the girls' absence.

Noar Kahalacha lawyer Aviad Hacohen called implementation of the court's ruling "an important test of the rule of law."

"It is hoped that the parents of the students and the teachers and all the others involved in the improper discrimination come to their senses," he said.

No response was available from the ultra-Orthodox education network.

The court has scheduled a hearing with the parents of the 74 girls, who will be asked to explain why they should not be viewed as accessories to the violation of the earlier order. They will also be asked whether furniture and equipment from the Beit Yaakov school is being used at the unauthorized institution and whether teachers from Beit Yaakov are being employed, either directly or indirectly, at the new school.

The school administration and municipal council have refused to get involved in proceedings against the parents, prompting the Education Ministry to file a complaint with the police contending that the new arrangement is a violation of the compulsory education law. Several weeks ago the ministry also ordered the unauthorized school closed.

Israel could attack Iran over nuclear program as early as April: U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta