18
   

War! The fear mongering is here, again!

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2012 06:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Translation--you were lying, and you know it, so you look to your own typical, pompous way of weaseling out. No surprises there. I hope your feel better now that you've puked up all that vitriol. You need to watch out for your blood pressure, boy.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 21 Jan, 2012 07:29 pm
@Setanta,
So typical.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:07 am

Thanks a pant load Obama...

US-based group says Iraqis are losing basic human rights and country is slipping back into authoritarianism
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 1 Feb, 2012 02:55 pm
Interesting article in today's Guardian.

Quote:
The head of US intelligence has warned that there is an increasing likelihood that Iran could carry out attacks in America or against US and allied targets around the world.

The warning from the director of national intelligence, James Clapper, reflects rapidly rising tensions over Iran's nuclear programme after the US and EU announced embargoes on the Iranian oil trade in the past few weeks, Israel leaked details of its preparation for a possible conflict and both the west and Iran boosted their military readiness in the Gulf.


And the following comment I find most prescient.

Quote:
"I don't think they are playing Iran anything like as well as they think they are," said Richard Dalton, a former British ambassador to Tehran. "The oil embargo tends to give those elements in Iran who want to have maximal defences, including nuclear defences, added weight to their arguments. Also they are poking Iran with a sharp stick but this is not accompanied by a new negotiating incentives."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jan/31/iranian-attack-america-allies-intelligence
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Feb, 2012 01:46 am
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent wrote:
So I think the neoconservative found their new target--Iran. As if it not enough that they kill over a million innocent Iraq people, and cause the country to be a living hell now.


I doubt the collateral damage was more than 10,000. And we caused the country to be a free democracy.



TuringEquivalent wrote:
Note that the top two comments are:

2. "Iran has invaded no country since 1945. The US has aggressively invaded 75. Who should the world be more afraid of? A country that has nuclear weapons, a history of aggressive invasions or a country that has no nuclear weapons and no history of aggression.
You decide."


Iran has murdered hundreds of Americans over the years, mainly Marine peacekeepers in Lebanon, but also US soldiers in Saudi Arabia. They also are responsible for a number of kidnappings in Lebanon in the 1980s.

The US aggressively invaded 75 countries? Nonsense.



TuringEquivalent wrote:
In my view( and it is share by many), sanctions are an act of war.


In reality, however, they are not.



TuringEquivalent wrote:
Ultimately, who are we harming with these sanctions, but the Iranian people. Iranian people are just like average Americans, or average people all over the world. They have families that are just trying to get by.


Well, there are really two realistic options for dealing with Iran's illegal nuclear program.

One is to bomb their nuclear sites into powder, and keep bombing as they try to rebuild. The other is to grind them into the ground with brutal sanctions.

There is a third option, but it isn't realistic (I hope).



TuringEquivalent wrote:
Normal people are going to suffering, because the neocons in the US want to extend their empire even more.


No, because Iran insists on trying to build illegal nuclear weapons.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Feb, 2012 01:55 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
A few thoughts:
- Neocons have always had Iran in their sights but much to the apparent frustration of Israel, they are not getting any traction with this one.


America is very resolved to prevent Iran from developing nukes. There may be some difference of opinion over when to bomb, or whether sanctions are better than bombing, but we stand opposed to Iran's illegal nuclear weapons program.



engineer wrote:
- I don't see how sanctions are acts of war. If I don't like you, I don't have to purchase your products. Are you saying the US must purchase Iranians products or it is an act of war? Seems like a long stretch.


Exactly.



engineer wrote:
- Iran is complicit in the current state of affairs regarding the US. If Iran did everything else the same but ignored the US (at least publicly), the US would ignore Iran. The US ignores lots of countries all the time. By continuously using the US as a foil to quell domestic unrest, they keep feeding the very small group in the US that has some axe to grind with Iran. Prior to the current hardliners coming into office, events in Iran were mainly the concern of a small group at the State Department working towards normalizing relations.


The US would still oppose their nuclear weapons program.

If they want us to ignore them, they need to give up the nukes along with the rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 29 Feb, 2012 02:13 am
@engineer,
engineer wrote:
All Iran has to do to avoid military action is not back the US into a corner where it has to attack to maintain credibility. That's it. Let's hope they are smart enough to realize that.


Actually, that isn't quite it. What they need to do is stop trying to build nuclear weapons.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 29 Feb, 2012 02:15 am
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
engineer wrote:
There would be no boots on the ground.


I don't think you can say that with any certainty.

The "shocking & awing" of Baghdad was supposed to have led to a quick US victory .... & look what eventuated.


Shock and Awe never really happened. That was just disinformation put out before the war to throw Saddam's defenses off from our true plan of attack.

But in any case, the only thing being proposed here is the destruction of Iran's nuclear facilities. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Iran be defeated (from the air or otherwise). They just want to blow up the nuclear sites and then go home.



msolga wrote:
engineer wrote:
All Iran has to do to avoid military action is not back the US into a corner where it has to attack to maintain credibility. That's it. Let's hope they are smart enough to realize that.


And perhaps all the US has to do (at this stage anyway, rather than even considering military retaliation) is to treat the rhetoric coming from Iran as the deranged rhetoric that is is .... not escalate the situation, certainly not threaten military retaliation to it.
"Attacking to maintain credibility" is a very poor excuse for military intervention into another country. Far worse that any crazy rhetoric which might be used as an excuse for it.


Unfortunately it is not mere rhetoric. The rhetoric is really irrelevant. The problem is the nuclear weapons program.
OmSigDAVID
 
  2  
Reply Wed 29 Feb, 2012 02:22 am
@oralloy,
Oralloy is 1OO% correct!
I think that is obvious.





David
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:16 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Btw an Iranian scientist was murdered today by terrorists, what's sauce for the goose and all that.


Nonsense. A wartime strike against a military target is neither murder nor terrorism.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:18 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Al Qaeda means "the Base," and which refers to a support base for the Mujihadeen of Afghanistan during the Russian occupation--it was set up and funded by the United States and it's members were trained by Central Intelligence. Saudi Arabia matched us dollar for dollar in our funding, and their man on the scene was Osama bin Laden, a Saudi national of Yemeni descent, and a fervent believer in Wahhabism, which is extremist, fundamentalist Sunni Islam.


al-Qa'ida did not receive American funding. All those funds were routed to Pakistan, who was given discretion to decide who would get them (so we'd have plausible deniability).

Pakistan chose to give the aid to the most extremist Afghani Muslims they could find, reasoning that an Islamic government would side with Pakistan against India if war broke out between them again. These extremist Afghanis became the Taliban.

Since al-Qa'ida was composed of foreigners instead of Afghan natives, Pakistan did not distribute any of our money to them. I'm sure they received a lot of money from Saudi Arabia however.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:22 am
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:
I fear that Israel will lead us into another war that we dont need because our politicians are once again being led by a minority.


Israel is not the cause of our pressing need to stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:23 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
It's a terrorist act, so Iran should take it to the security council.


Nonsense.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:26 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The fact that you're terrified of visiting your grandfather's birthplace without being armed, shows how far from reality you've allowed yourself to drift.


More nonsense. It has nothing to do with being terrified. When a free person visits a place where there is no freedom, it just makes their soul itch.

I can't wait for the Supreme Court to force Chicago to allow widespread concealed carry so I can go visit them again.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:51 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
In my understanding, a .44 special will have more STOPPING POWER
than a .357 magnum.


I'd say they were similar, but derive their stopping power in different ways.

The higher velocities of the .357 cause the hollowpoint to open more violently, and the added violence compensates for the smaller overall diameter.

It works best when the barrel is at least four inches though, since the high velocity is key.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 12:55 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
Remember, despite all the rhetoric, Iran has not attacked anyone since the revolution.


Iran killed hundreds of Marine peacekeepers in Lebanon in the 1980s, and also were behind a number of kidnappings where innocent civilians were held for years. In the 1990s they killed dozens of American soldiers in Saudi Arabia. More recently they've supplied dangerous weapons to insurgents in both Iraq and Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 01:02 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
An air campaign alone has little prospect of taking out their nuclear capacity, the more so given how long and how loudly sabers have been rattled. It's not as though the Persians are so stupid that they have needed to be told to disperse their facilities and to put them underground.


Many of their facilities remain above ground. And what bunkers Iran has built, they've built so incompetently that the bunkers can be destroyed with 5000-pound bunker busters.

The US has moved on to 30,000-pound bunker busters. And Obama has given Israel a stockpile of the older 5000-pound variants (not sure how many, but I'm sure enough for Israel to bomb as many Iranian bunkers as they'd like).
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 01:10 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
Bridges end up at the bottoms of rivers precisely because they are (given the state of the art) relatively easy targets. Underground bunkers? Not so much. In the Second World War, the Japanese on New Guinea built defensive bunkers for infantry using only the logs of newly cut palm trees and dirt heaped on it. The USAAF and the RAAF pounded the bejeezus out of those bunkers for days one end. In the end, infantry had to go in there and dig them out, because tons and tons of HE hadn't done the job.


That was before we had modern bunker busters though.



Setanta wrote:
Yeah, we've got smart bombs, and we've got cruise missiles. First, you have to know precisely where to put them, and then, you get the obvious entry points--with no guarantee that you've done any significant damage to the facilities below.


We know exactly where to put them. So does Israel.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 01:12 am
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
BillRM wrote:
LOL It you can not power the nuclear enrichment centrifuges because all your power plants had been wipe the centrifuges are junk just to start with.


What the **** are you trying to say? This is gibberish, the only thing that makes sense is LOL. Stick to acronyms, words are just too tricky.


Don't be silly. There were just a few typos.

He's pointing out that if the Iranians have no electricity, their centrifuges will not be running.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 1 Mar, 2012 02:03 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
It apparently does not occur to you that uranium can be "enriched" in a breeder reactor. Those need to be refueled only when all of the original fissile material has been processed.


The destruction of Iranian reactors (particularly the ones that are useful for producing weapons-grade fissile material) will feature high on the target list of either an Israeli or American bombing campaign.



Setanta wrote:
How long to you think western nations can keep bombing everything that moves in Iran, bright boy? Longer than the uranium or thorium core in a breeder reactor takes to convert?


I expect that once the bombardment of Iran commences, they will have to be re-bombed about once a year to prevent them from successfully rebuilding.
0 Replies
 
 

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