18
   

War! The fear mongering is here, again!

 
 
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 02:18 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent wrote:

You have a point about Iran giving reasons for the US to hate her. This is history now. It is vital for Iran to earn dollar. If they can 't, just like a defeated wild animal, the animal will fight back.

The US has an incredibly short attention span. If Iran defused the current situation, engaged with France in particular and EU in general to get the monkey off their back on nuclear inspections and stopped doing really stupid things like threatening the Gulf of Hormuz, we would quickly get back to the point where Israel is anti-Iran, the US ignores Israel's rants and Iran does whatever they want. As long as they are not showing up on the evening news chanting "Death to America" and denying the Holocaust they will quickly be replaced by the latest happenings on "Jersey Shore" for 99+% of Americans. It takes tremendous provocation for the world to turn its back on Iran's oil and right now Iran is providing that, not only to the US but to Europe and other parts of the Middle East. (Without Saudi Arabia being willing to step up production, an embargo of Iranian oil would fizzle pretty quickly.) It's not history, it's now. Iran issued veiled threats against US Navy ships in international waters today. The very idea of Iran starting a military spat with the US makes neocons cackle with glee. Just as using the threat of the US unifies the Iranian people, attacking a US ship in international waters would put 95% of the US public firmly behind a military response.
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 02:58 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
Speaking to the conflict with Iran specifically, by and large, the rhetoric coming out of Tehran is directed against the Zionist regime and its illegitimacy, with the US being its pawn. Of course Iran uses this belligerence against Israel/US largely as a pretext. There are also the repercussions dating from the middle of the last century when the US colluded to overthrow the democratic government of Iran and installed the authoritarian Shah, his subsequent overthrow and the assumption of power by the Shia islamists in that country.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 05:17 pm
@Setanta,
Dident mean to address this to you. I meant to address it to Ohm. Sorry.
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 05:32 pm
Dont you think that Iran knows that attacking a U.S. carrier will invite massive retaliation. Israel and the conservatives are foaming at the mouth in anticipation of a war. A massive war would cure the recession just what the rich want. All it will cost is a few tens of thousands boy and girls who arnt producing anything anyway. A win, win situation??
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:29 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
Unless you expect the neo-cons to take the White House and the Senate in November, a war (at their insistence) with Iran is unlikely to occur.

Maybe Obama and the Democrats will start one.

There are reports that Obama has cut a deal with Israel wherein if Israel refrains from attacking Iran, the US will do so, once certain agreed upon nuclear lines have been crossed.

I don't buy this as being true, but you never know. It's not like Obama has bent over backwards to justify his Nobel Peace Prize.

I think sanctions can certainly be considered an act of aggression if not quite an act of war. National sanctions directed at another nation are not limited to the sanctioning nation simply not engaging in commerce with the target country. Part of any sanction regime is overt or covert coercion of other nations who choose to engage in commerce with the target nation.

It's one thing for one nation to declare it will not trade with another, but it is something else when the sanctioning nation uses its economic and military power to coerce other nations to join in.

Yes, sanctions tend to have the most immediate and direct impact on the people of the sanctioned nation, as opposed to the ruling regime, but sometimes the people need this sort of scolding...Germans during the Third Reich come to mind.

If, however, the majority (because it will never be the totality) of the sanctioned nation's people suffer economically, isn't that preferable to them suffering militarily?

Wars, most often, are waged between regimes with the people (to one degree or another) getting caught up as incidental participants. If there is a reason for one regime (or one nation) to feel threatened by another the logical, and arguably moral, solution is not to wipe out the population of the threatening nation but to take out the regime in charge. Unfortunately war can't accomplish this goal without leading to the deaths of civilians outside of the regime.

Since the Left in America gets its collective panties in a twist whenever the subject of strategic assassination come up, it's tough for the US to go down that more reasonable route.

According to the anti-war left, we can't assassinate, we shouldn't go to war and it's a lousy idea to impose economic sanctions. Presumably this leaves us with the option of surrendering.

Obviously the purpose of sanctions is not to directly injure the members of the regimes with which we have a problem. Clearly, the Iranian theocrats will never experience the sanction imposed hardships the Iranian citizens must endure, any more than the ruling Afrikanners experienced the acute effect of sanctions during South Africa's apartheid period.

The idea, of course, is to create an economic situation wherein complying with the oppressive regime is a worse choice than suffering from sanctions.

In such a case, the average Iranian, as was the case with the average South African, is taking it in the neck for the chance of a regime change.

Sort of sucks for them, but what is the alternative?

Unlike Iran, South Africa had no hegemonic goals, and yet liberals around the world were all in favor of sanctions as a means to defeat apartheid.

It's less a question of which makes sense and which does not as it is of being consistent.

A majority of the South African population was suffering as a result of their regime's policies. The same is true in regards to Iran, and yet so many people see the two situations differently.

Oppression is oppression and, at least as far as I'm concerned, it’s not of a worse degree if based on race as opposed to religion, ideology or hunger for power.

The protesters who died in the streets of Tehran last year are no less tragic figures than the protestors who died during South African apartheid.

Leaving Iran completely alone is obviously an option. Ron Paul certainly advocates it.

Is that something that appeals to you?
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 06:50 pm
@RABEL222,
RABEL222 wrote:

Dont you think that Iran knows that attacking a U.S. carrier will invite massive retaliation.

Yes, so it's pretty stupid for them to threaten it since the US must respond.
RABEL222 wrote:
Israel and the conservatives are foaming at the mouth in anticipation of a war. A massive war would cure the recession just what the rich want.

You're not paying much attention. The last two big wars caused a larger recession and increased federal debt (like always), it didn't improve the economy. Nor does modern war result in a high body count for the US. Iranian facilities will be destroyed from the air by pilots sitting in Colorado using joy sticks. There would be no boots on the ground. The US is suffering from war fatigue and big US interests are not interested in another war in oil country and the instability in world markets it would produce. All Iran has to do to avoid military action is not back the US into a corner where it has to attack to maintain credibility. That's it. Let's hope they are smart enough to realize that.
TuringEquivalent
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:36 pm
@engineer,
engineer wrote:

TuringEquivalent wrote:

You have a point about Iran giving reasons for the US to hate her. This is history now. It is vital for Iran to earn dollar. If they can 't, just like a defeated wild animal, the animal will fight back.

The US has an incredibly short attention span. If Iran defused the current situation, engaged with France in particular and EU in general to get the monkey off their back on nuclear inspections and stopped doing really stupid things like threatening the Gulf of Hormuz, we would quickly get back to the point where Israel is anti-Iran, the US ignores Israel's rants and Iran does whatever they want.


If you watch the link I posted, Iran is already willing to get back in a talk with the US. They are obviously willing to make compromises if the US is willing to go back to the table. I don 't think this is going to happen, because I don 't the US want compromises. The US want an excuse for war, and take control of Iran oil.

France? You think Iranians are able to convince the French to buy their oil, or any other major EU countries? EU are all controlled by Jews. If EU can elect some one like Strauss-Kahn( big bank Jew), then the Jews already control much of Europe. The Jews will want nothing more than to eliminate Iran once 's and for all.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:46 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
The US is suffering from war fatigue...

You could also say that US allies are suffering from considerable war fatigue, say nothing of considerable revulsion, as well. After the Iraq & Afghanistan debacles I'd imagine that even any half serious suggestion of yet another war/invasion would be met with massive resistance, on the part of the people in those allied countries, at the very least.
Quote:
There would be no boots on the ground.

I don't think you can say that with any certainty.
The "shocking & awing" of Baghdad was supposed to have led to a quick US victory .... & look what eventuated.
I honestly cannot see some solely "drone led" victory over any country attacked in that way. There would inevitably be consequences for the country which initiated such attacks, which could well escalate to something far bigger.
And let's not forget that innocent victims of drone attacks should be counted in the equation, too. There have been quite enough of those already, in countries like Pakistan & Yemen. Those deaths have certainly not won the US any friends in the countries involved.
I know you are not advocating such an approach, I just think that the notion of some sort of easy war, conducted from Colorado, is as unrealistic as the initial "shock & awe" tactics were in Iraq. I'm certain that it would lead to something much bigger, possibly including "boots on the ground".

Quote:
All Iran has to do to avoid military action is not back the US into a corner where it has to attack to maintain credibility. That's it. Let's hope they are smart enough to realize that.

And perhaps all the US has to do (at this stage anyway, rather than even considering military retaliation) is to treat the rhetoric coming from Iran as the deranged rhetoric that is is .... not escalate the situation, certainly not threaten military retaliation to it.
"Attacking to maintain credibility" is a very poor excuse for military intervention into another country. Far worse that any crazy rhetoric which might be used as an excuse for it.

-
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:51 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:
"Attacking to maintain credibility" is a very poor excuse for military intervention into another country. Far worse that any crazy rhetoric which might be used as an excuse for it.

True, but the political consideration in the US is that ignoring repeated provocations will give the Republicans extensive ammo to make Obama appear weak before the 2012 elections. Obama hasn't shown the backbone to resist that and take his case to the public. The idea that the US will always show adult like restraint in the face of juvenile provocation should have been complete erased by now but somehow people keep thinking it is true. As for the boots on the ground, there will be no invasion of Iran under any circumstances but missile attacks on navy bases and suspected nuclear facilities would meet Obama's needs just fine. Clinton did the same on a small scale when he needed to make an example.
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 07:56 pm
@TuringEquivalent,
TuringEquivalent wrote:

If you watch the link I posted, Iran is already willing to get back in a talk with the US. They are obviously willing to make compromises if the US is willing to go back to the table. I don 't think this is going to happen, because I don 't the US want compromises. The US want an excuse for war, and take control of Iran oil.

As Msolga pointed out, Iran doesn't need to get the US back to the table (the US and Iran haven't really talked in years), they only need to get the US allies back to the table and that's much easier. As for the US controlling Iranian oil, nothing short of a full scale invasion is going to do that and that's not happening. You can also look at how effectively the US took control of Iraqi oil to see how well that scenario plays out.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:04 pm
@engineer,
That may well be the case, engineer.
But what you are talking about US internal politics.
Attacking another country for the purpose of proving that a leader is not "weak" seems to me to be an obscene political motivation.
Obama has continued from where Bush left off, in regard to foreign interventions/wars.
If the US voting public can't see that for themselves, then they have simply not been paying attention.
Another intervention should not be required to persuade them that Obama is tougher than the Republican alternative .
That's just crazy.
Is there really so little consideration for the victims of military interventions?
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:08 pm
@engineer,
Quote:
As Msolga pointed out, Iran doesn't need to get the US back to the table (the US and Iran haven't really talked in years), they only need to get the US allies back to the table and that's much easier.

I'm not sure what you mean here, engineer.
I didn't say anything about bringing US allies "back to the table".
engineer
 
  2  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:09 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Is there really so little consideration for the victims of military interventions?

Sadly, YES THERE REALLY IS SO LITTLE CONSIDERATION FOR THE VICTIMS OF MILITARY INTERVENTIONS. It's not even part of the political discussion in the US. Nor do you get a lot of points in US politics for currying the favor of people outside the US. The idea that doing stupid things makes people in other countries less likely to support US policy is a complete loser when debating rabid right wingers here. That's just "sucking up to foreigners."
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:13 pm
@msolga,
I meant that, as you pointed out, traditional US allies are tired of war and the US leading them into messes. They are much more willing to pursue a diplomatic solution if Iran will meet them partway and if diplomacy is in progress, the US has a much weaker hand for aggressive action and those not pushing for military action have political cover, perhaps even room to score political points since they can point to using soft pressure to bring Iran back to the table instead of military power.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:15 pm
@engineer,
Well, if you're correct in that assessment, engineer, what can I possibly say?
That is an extremely frightening & worrying perspective indeed.
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:16 pm
@engineer,
Oh OK then.
I see what you mean.
0 Replies
 
TuringEquivalent
 
  0  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:24 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Unless you expect the neo-cons to take the White House and the Senate in November, a war (at their insistence) with Iran is unlikely to occur.

Maybe Obama and the Democrats will start one.

There are reports that Obama has cut a deal with Israel wherein if Israel refrains from attacking Iran, the US will do so, once certain agreed upon nuclear lines have been crossed.

I don't buy this as being true, but you never know. It's not like Obama has bent over backwards to justify his Nobel Peace Prize.

I think sanctions can certainly be considered an act of aggression if not quite an act of war. National sanctions directed at another nation are not limited to the sanctioning nation simply not engaging in commerce with the target country. Part of any sanction regime is overt or covert coercion of other nations who choose to engage in commerce with the target nation.

It's one thing for one nation to declare it will not trade with another, but it is something else when the sanctioning nation uses its economic and military power to coerce other nations to join in.

Yes, sanctions tend to have the most immediate and direct impact on the people of the sanctioned nation, as opposed to the ruling regime, but sometimes the people need this sort of scolding...Germans during the Third Reich come to mind.

If, however, the majority (because it will never be the totality) of the sanctioned nation's people suffer economically, isn't that preferable to them suffering militarily?

Wars, most often, are waged between regimes with the people (to one degree or another) getting caught up as incidental participants. If there is a reason for one regime (or one nation) to feel threatened by another the logical, and arguably moral, solution is not to wipe out the population of the threatening nation but to take out the regime in charge. Unfortunately war can't accomplish this goal without leading to the deaths of civilians outside of the regime.

Since the Left in America gets its collective panties in a twist whenever the subject of strategic assassination come up, it's tough for the US to go down that more reasonable route.

According to the anti-war left, we can't assassinate, we shouldn't go to war and it's a lousy idea to impose economic sanctions. Presumably this leaves us with the option of surrendering.

Obviously the purpose of sanctions is not to directly injure the members of the regimes with which we have a problem. Clearly, the Iranian theocrats will never experience the sanction imposed hardships the Iranian citizens must endure, any more than the ruling Afrikanners experienced the acute effect of sanctions during South Africa's apartheid period.

The idea, of course, is to create an economic situation wherein complying with the oppressive regime is a worse choice than suffering from sanctions.

In such a case, the average Iranian, as was the case with the average South African, is taking it in the neck for the chance of a regime change.

Sort of sucks for them, but what is the alternative?

Unlike Iran, South Africa had no hegemonic goals, and yet liberals around the world were all in favor of sanctions as a means to defeat apartheid.

It's less a question of which makes sense and which does not as it is of being consistent.

A majority of the South African population was suffering as a result of their regime's policies. The same is true in regards to Iran, and yet so many people see the two situations differently.

Oppression is oppression and, at least as far as I'm concerned, it’s not of a worse degree if based on race as opposed to religion, ideology or hunger for power.

The protesters who died in the streets of Tehran last year are no less tragic figures than the protestors who died during South African apartheid.

Leaving Iran completely alone is obviously an option. Ron Paul certainly advocates it.

Is that something that appeals to you?



South African apartheid system is institutional discrimination. It is an "evil" system, and it ought to be abolished. This does make me sound like a neo-con.


I find it hard to see the similar between the Apartheid system in south Africa, V.S "regime oppression" in the case of Iran. First of all, what does "regime oppression" even mean? Ultimate, every regime, or government in general have certain oppressive elements( got to obey the some laws) to it. Who gets to decides which regime is particularly "oppressive"? The US?

Quote:
If there is a reason for one regime (or one nation) to feel threatened by another the logical, and arguably moral, solution is not to wipe out the population of the threatening nation but to take out the regime in charge. Unfortunately war can't accomplish this goal without leading to the deaths of civilians outside of the regime.



How exactly is Iran threatening the US? Are you ******* kidding me? They are threatened by the US, and that is why they want nukes, or anything they can get.

You last sentence actually means war is unavoidable, and innocent Iranian will be lose. If you want war so much, you can go fight them yourself.



engineer
 
  3  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:34 pm
@msolga,
msolga wrote:

Well, if you're correct in that assessment, engineer, what can I possibly say?
That is an extremely frightening & worrying perspective indeed.

Yes it is. The flip side is that the current administration is really not interested in trying to make some sort of statement in Iran. If Iran really does start up talks with the IAEA and some of the big European allies and does not try any brinksmanship in the Gulf, Obama will declare victory and go back to US domestic issues. Bush was looking for trouble in the Middle East, Obama is not. It is one thing to burn US flags and another to attack US ships. There is a line out there where Obama will have to act. My fear is that Iran is not culturally able to see where it is. I've always thought that Iran and the US would be natural allies if they didn't have such huge cultural misconceptions about each other. Clinton made some progress but Bush destroyed it all and created an environment where hardliners were able to crush all dissent. The US is a very literal place. If you run around and scream "Death to America", there is a significant part of the population here that will read into that exactly what it says. Shrill rhetoric doesn't translate well in US culture but I doubt anyone in Iran really understands that.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:49 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:
By the way, during the war crimes trials after the Second World War,
the defense teams for Japanese officers accused of war crimes
used the excuse that sanctions are an act of war, and that therefore, the Japanese did not start the war
with the United States. Reasonable people can disagree.
Yeah, when I wanna know what war crimes r,
I 'll be sure to go to "the defense teams for Japanese officers accused of war crimes" to find out.
Thay r the AUTHORITIES on that, right?
(but thay might accuse me of being obtuse or hypocritical)





David
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Jan, 2012 08:49 pm
@engineer,
Thank you for your insights, engineer.
Though you're scaring me out of my wits! Wink
I'd honestly thought (wrongly, by the sounds of it) that US domestic issues were much more at the forefront of voters concerns today, compared to a few years ago, anyway ...
The thought that any further consideration of "foreign interventions" might have some popular appeal, after the debilitating impact of Iraq & Afghanistan (say nothing of the impact on your economy) is rather bewildering, I must say.
 

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