Worlds of English

@oristarA,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Everywhere thru out America,
written English is recognized and understood.

Is it similarly true that thru out China
its written language is recognized and understood??

I 've heard (from Chinese) that the spoken languages of China
are not understandable from one region to another.
David

oristarA wrote:

Written Chinese is recognized and understood in almost all of China, but I suspect in some regions of Xinjiang and Tibet, it might be a problem. I believe you know why.

As for spoken Chinese (Mandarin or Putonghua) , I've asked several Chinese doctors to tell whether they have encountered Mandarin-ignorant people in some city, county or town when in travel or on errand with whom they failed to chat about. They told me in some rural areas in Guangdong or Zhejiang, Mandarin is not understood. Almost every city or county in China, except some districts of Xinjiang or Tibet, Putonghua is the best tool for communication.

To what extent is Chinese recognized
and understood by the Japs and vice-versa,
either written or spoken ?

Some years ago, I saw a news report on TV
that immigration to America had shifted
predominantly from area of China to another.
An earlier Chinese immigrant was interviewed in the street.
He said, in English, "I thought I knew how to speak Chinese"
but he did not understand the language of newcomers from China.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

To what extent is Chinese recognized
and understood by the Japs and vice-versa,
either written or spoken ?

Some years ago, I saw a news report on TV
that immigration to America had shifted
predominantly from area of China to another.
An earlier Chinese immigrant was interviewed in the street.
He said, in English, "I thought I knew how to speak Chinese"
but he did not understand the language of newcomers from China.

David

For a Chinese who has never learnt Japanese, he may recognize no more than 5% Japanese messages in YOMIURI ONLINE. Kanji, though with same characters as standard Chinese, quite often convey different implications. But I believe Japs would get more meaning from Chinese texts because the overall educational level of Japan is much higher than that of China.

As for the case of failing to understand the newcomers. Historically speaking, the conflicts between Cantonese and Standard Chinese (Putonghua) may have played an important role. The tone of Putonghua is Beijing dialect based, is often not appreciated by Cantonese people (that is, they may refuse to answer you with Putonghua). 100 years ago, when Republic of China was just established, The Congressmen had to decide the official language, and two candidates came to their view: Beijingnese (Beijing dialect) and Cantonese. With one vote less Cantonese lost the vote and Beijing dialect got its position of the national language. But Cantonese was the native tongue for half of the congressmen, they were reluctant to accept the result until Sun Yat-sen, the provisional president showed his persuasive power. Still, Cantonese remains as the National Language in the heart of many Cantonese folks. One reason for this phenomenon is that Cantonese is popular in Hong Kong, which is now the most economically developed area in China.

That is, the interviewer might have come from Canton or somewhere around, he didn't know how to speak or understand Beijing dialect or Putonghua.

2 Replies

@oristarA,

Hong Kong is very lovable.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

From what I understand, because the written language is not phonetic, it's heiroglyphic, both Mandarin and Cantonese speakers can understand each other's writing, if not speech.

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The first Chinese to come to North America in any sizeable numbers came here starting in 1849 to take part in the California Gold Rsh. The next significant wave came about 10 years later to work as track-layers on the trans-continental railroad. These were, obviously, laboring people of very little education. Their language was almost exclusively Cantonese. The Putonghua-speaking Beijing-based contingent was very sparsely represented among these early immigrants.

This influx of Cantonese-speakers continued into very recent times; when Britain returned Hong Kong to its rightful owners, the Chinese government, there was a large exodus of Cantonese-speaking Hong Kong Chinese who could afford to relocate to North America, Europe or elsewhere. These people were far better educated and economically better off than the immigrants of the 19th and early 20th Century. However, their main language was still Cantonese.

All this has changed in recent years, however. The Chinese coming to North America these days are, without exception, better educated and come from different social circles than their predecessors. They do not come here as laborers but, rather, as scholars, univerity lecturers, business executives, business entrepreneurs and so on. Because of their social position in China, they are far more likely to be Putonghua, rather than Cantonese, speakers.

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

The Chinese coming to North America these days are, without exception, better educated and come from different social circles than their predecessors. They do not come here as laborers but, rather, as scholars, univerity lecturers, business executives, business entrepreneurs and so on. Because of their social position in China, they are far more likely to be Putonghua, rather than Cantonese, speakers.

that may be the case in the U.S. but is not the case in central and eastern Canada.

1 Reply

@ehBeth,

You're probably right, ehBeth. But one reason for that is that Canada got the lion's share of the recent immigrants from Hong Kong/Kowloon and environs. These people were mainly Cantonese speakers. I don't have a link for actual statistics but I remember reading at the time that far more Hong Kong "refugees" were settling in Ontario and elsewhere in Canada than anyplace in the U.S.A. Those who come here with full Chinese government sanction tend to bePutonghua speakers.

1 Reply

@Lustig Andrei,

Those coming from Hong Kong would have been considered part of the Commonwealth and would have had a far easier time getting into Canada.

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@oristarA,

Quote:

But I believe Japs would get more meaning from Chinese texts because the overall educational level of Japan is much higher than that of China.

The use of 'Jap' is a pejorative, Ori. You can't use OmSigDave as a good or accurate measure of English because he is quite ignorant on that subject.

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

But I believe Japs would get more meaning from Chinese texts because the overall educational level of Japan is much higher than that of China.

JTT wrote:

The use of 'Jap' is a pejorative, Ori.
You can't use OmSigDave as a good or accurate measure of English because he is quite ignorant on that subject.

Jap is an abbreviation, a shortening, not a qualitative evaluation, but an identification.
Altho the Japs have done some horrible things, e.g. the 1937 rape of Nanking, China,
Bataan Death March, hell ships etc., I bear them no ill will any more.
MY family never suffered at their hands
(tho we were a little taken aback by Pearl Harbor).

However, it is a fact that some irrational people also deem it to be pejorative in addition to being a shortening.
JTT is irrational and has explicitly repudiated logic.
Therefore, he is not at all a reliable guide.

HOWEVER, I must admit that some of my use of English
is intended for Americans, to try to lead them into new
and better spelling of English, the way it is spoken.
That is not paradigmatic and therefore, I feel a little guilty
in doing it in front of those to whom English is not a first language.

In that respect, Oristar, I feel that I probably shoud apologize to u.
I must acknowledge that I shud not (or should not) to anything that confuses you.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

However, it is a fact that some irrational people also deem it to be pejorative.

Your ignorance serves you well, Dave.

Quote:

Jap

NOUN:
Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of Japanese birth or descent.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Jap

1 Reply

@JTT,

Quote:

However, it is a fact that some irrational people also deem it to be pejorative.

JTT wrote:

Your ignorance serves you well, Dave.

Quote:
Jap

NOUN:
Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of Japanese birth or descent.

http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/Jap

It is not ignorance, J.
It is a rejection of that false reasoning; it is in dispute.
There are 2 sides to the dispute. I am on one of them.
The author of your quote advocates the point of vu with which u agree.
( Presumably, u selected his quote on that basis. )
That does not mean that he is correct.
YOU are the great one for rejecting "prescription".

If I take the trouble, I can probably find dictionaries
that acknowledge that "Jap" is an abbreviation of the full word.
I re-iterate that it is not a qualitiative evaluation.

If someone chooses to refer to my country as US instead of America,
I take no offense and I do so myself.

It has not been my practice to discriminate against the Japs,
nor have I borne them ill will (tho we were somewhat annoyed with them in the 1930s and 40s).

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

(tho we were somewhat annoyed with them in the 1930s and 40s).

America always seems to get annoyed at those who dare to steal the things that they have stolen; those that invade countries that the US hasn't had the chance to invade [in order to steal the wealth from those countries].

0 Replies

My EE dict also says:

Jap [dʒæp]
n.
(offensive slang) a person of Japanese descent.

When I read Dave's post, my intuition told me that the word Jap was derogative, somehow I still followed, perhaps for the sake of convenience, Dave's track and used the word.

If it was in dispute, my opinion is better not to use it.

2 Replies

@oristarA,

Good for you, Ori.

Most Americans (David is an exception) consider the word 'Jap' derogatory and it is not in general use in polite society. The word came into widespread use during World War II when we were at war with Japan and not much attention was paid to how we spoke of the Japanese or the Germans since both were considered to be enemies. It may have originated as nothing more than a shortening of the word 'Japanese,' but it certainly has a pejorative connotation today.

People of an older generation (e.g. David) sometimes get in the habit of using words that were considered okay in the 1940s but are no longer so considered. I belong to that same generation but I try to watch my language when I realize that it may be offensive to some.

1 Reply

@oristarA,

oristarA wrote:

My EE dict also says:

Jap [dʒæp]
n.
(offensive slang) a person of Japanese descent.

When I read Dave's post, my intuition told me that the word Jap was derogative,
somehow I still followed, perhaps for the sake of convenience, Dave's track and used the word.

If it was in dispute, my opinion is better not to use it.

That 's a good choice.
Its better not to antagonize anyone unnecessarily. Who knows ?

David

2 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Who knows ?

Sane, rational people who have a grasp of their native language know, Dave.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Who knows ?

Sane, rational people who have a grasp of their native language know, Dave.

0 Replies

@Lustig Andrei,

Lustig Andrei wrote:

Good for you, Ori.

Most Americans (David is an exception) consider the word 'Jap' derogatory
and it is not in general use in polite society.

I tend to agree with most of your post,
but not insofar as discussion of the history of the 1930s thru 40s.
In such discussion, dispassionate, objective, calm, n considered
reference is commonly made to the Japs, without anger nor resentment.

How are thay referred to in China, Oristar ?

Lustig Andrei wrote:

The word came into widespread use during World War II when we were at war with Japan and not much attention was paid to how we spoke of the Japanese or the Germans since both were considered to be enemies. It may have originated as nothing more than a shortening of the word 'Japanese,'

That 's a FACT. There is no room for doubt on that point.
It only served to identify them not to imply any description of them.
Its like calling someone "Fred" or "Tom" or "Joe".
If we actually WERE mad at them, that was indicated with adjectives,
e.g. damn Japs, dirty Japs, sneaky Japs, fanatical Japs, etc.

Lustig Andrei wrote:

but it certainly has a pejorative connotation today.

People of an older generation (e.g. David) sometimes get in the habit of using words that were considered okay in the 1940s but are no longer so considered. I belong to that same generation but I try to watch my language when I realize that it may be offensive to some.

Yes. This issue was manifested also with my accustomed use
of the friendly, benign, approving word: "chicks" when referring
to the fair sex. There were no problems (on the other hand,
u better not call them "broads"; maybe not "dames" either)
in the 1940s n 50s, but in later decades dissonance arose
of resentment from use of that word.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

How are thay referred to in China, Oristar ?

Ri ben ren （日本人）。

1 Reply

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