Maybe, I've been on my own too long . . .

Noddy,

Many years ago, I had a relationship with an attorney in Detroit that lasted much longer than it should have. I think our second date would have been our last but my mother adored him. My parents did everything they could to break up my relationship with the first man I ever loved and it was a ridiculous thing. He was from our church and his family was of higher social status than mine: his father was an engineer for Ford Motor Co and his mother was a high school home ec teacher. He was a National Merit Scholarship winner who is now a physician. Something inside me told me not to let the lawyer in my life until my mother gushed about his charm and honesty. My parents hostility toward the doctor generated seven years of pain for me . . . and probably as many for him as he is on his third marriage.

When the attorney and I finally broke up, a man who was my closest friend for a decade asked what I got from the relationship and I don't remember what I said because in the long run, it wasn't very much. He then asked what the attorney got from me and I said an appreciation of Medieval music. My friend then said any man who could spend more than a year with me and get nothing more from the relationship than Medieval music was a fool and not worthy of me.

Despite that experience, I partially married my husband because my parents liked him. My dad always hated the fact that men I find attractive are 'skinny,' but most men are skinny in their 20s and, besides, I'm a small woman and what I was attracted to was small boned but broad shouldered me.

Another reason why I married him was he had a scientist's education but claimed that during his grad student years in Boston, he realized what he had missed in terms of knowledge of the humanities and philosophy and that he made a real effort to learn about opera and to look critically at art and that some day, he would earn a second PhD, this time in philosophy.
WOW! I thought! A fellow seeker! Well, it was a lie. It wasn't even courtship-bullsh1t. It was just a lie. That was part of the reason why attending movies with him was a problem. Museums? Forget it! All that ended up being was whine! whine! I'm thirsty! My legs hurt!

Both of those relationships shrank me

You just wrote about looking for a man to extend myself. If I were to seek a man as passionate about live theatre, as interested in early music and as willing to spend an evening with a great dinner and a good bottle of wine, reading to each other from a terrific novel, he'd probably be gay. . . and that would do nothing for the sexual side of my nature.

I don't think men want to be extended. I wrote somewhere recently of an experience I had with a man on match.com. I wrote that I loved early music and folk music and he wrote back about how much he loves jazz. I think he thought we were having an argument and I thought we were having a conversation.

A man I met through an activity I enjoy felt perfectly right in his own mind to criticize my taste in music and to use it as an excuse for not pursuing a relationship.

The idea of extension is what lies behind this thread. When I met my ex-boyfriend, a man who actually did extend me in several areas, one of the problems we had was film. Although we haven't spoken in three weeks (yeah! I only broke up with him in 2000.), I know that he is still upset with me for dragging him to 31 short films about Glen Gould which I thought brilliant. On the other hand, I was very upset over The Matrix which I thought hideously ugly, a failed social satire without a point. He couldn't comprehend that I didn't have an interest in 'main stream movies.' I said I didn't read main stream novels and pointed out to him that he was passionate about music that wasn't main stream, so why would he waste his time on kitch in the first run theatres?

Here is something which i believe most men are not aware of, and do not naturally comprehend about relationships with women:



Men, especially young men, often do not invest their self-image, their sense of worth, in a relationship. Not to be crude, but most men have, or are expected by other men to have, an attitude of "oh well, she was just a bitch" if a relationship does not work out. I also think that people give off non-verbal clues (of which not only they are unaware, but others unaware of reading), like psychic "kick-me" signs. Manipulative, opportunist men and women gravitate toward, and take advantage of the trusting. I think this hurts women more than men, at least in the short run. I would also be a pains to make it clear that i don't find men emotionally stunted in comparison to women, simply that they have (in our culture) this silly ethos of rigid, emotional self-control. In the long run, they suffer from the failures of relationships, whether or not they ever acknowledge this. Women, i think, suffer more immediately, and sooner or later, learn to avoid the situations which have hurt them in the past. I think that in looking for "someone to love," we all of us make bad choices, and all too often, choose exactly the same personality types again and again.

Plainoldme--

I know what you mean by relationships that shrink you. My first husband was an insecure Pygmalion wanna-be who felt he would be perfectly happy if my world were limited to kids & kitchen--although I was also supposed to deliver fulsome critiques on his prose and poetry while accepting "toughening" criticism of my own.

Remembering those years can still give me the cauld grue.

Setanta made a great point about the Mars/Venus differences of sinking one's ego in a relationship.

Bottom line--at least for courtship: Do you have more fun with him or without him? He needn't necessarily be able to introduce you to Tao or Balken culture or snowboarding or rock hunting. Is he fun to be with? Fun for an afternoon? A week? A year or so? A lifetime? (Confusing short-term and long-term life enhancing qualities can be a dreadful mistake.)

You're very clear in your own mind that Parental Approval does not equal Personal Happiness (of course Parental Approval doesn't negate Personal Happiness, either).

If you can keep your emotions sorted out, (and the men involved are comfortable) there is nothing wrong with with having a Bedroom Friend for sex and a gay guy for culture--or a straight guy for culture.

Bottom line: What do you want a man to do for you that you cannot do for yourself?

Setanta,
Lots of food for thought in your post. I think a three way conversation between you, noddy and shoesharper would be very interesting.

I remember when I was in college, 1965-69, many of the people who were slightly older than I was (my "big sister" which graduated in 1967) had a set of goals regarding marriage. The young men these women dated and eventually married were very set on presenting their fiancees with huge diamonds and many of them worked for diamond merchants in order to get a discount on an engagement ring. As for the young women, they wanted to marry Notre Dame men or lawyers or something like that. In other words, there was a lot of public or external stuff demanded of each other, with little emphasis on who they were as people. Indeed, it may be that they were their material goods.

My own college "big sister" married an extraordinarily handsome Notre Dame man who eventually became a lawyer. They divorced after 2 or 3 years. When she told me about it, she said he couldn't take what she called "the nitty gritty of married life," i.e., seeing her in curlers. I hate to think either of them were that shallow but maybe they were.

My ex-husband worked very hard at not showing emotion in public but he is and was a person in whom emotions "run amok," to use one of his phrases. There was no hand holding and my older son once remarked how he had never seen us kiss each other, which my son found strange and sad. My former boyfriend, who succeeded my husband, seemed a person more given expressions of affection but he firmly believed it was good to keep emotions level. He felt a successful man-woman relationship was one where the love was somewhere around 75% and steady. He put it in terms of his reaction to a former girlfriend, where his level of committment to her bounced up and down. I tried hard to understand that. People admired him for what they called his calmness and I thought calm was part of the 75% situation. I began to think that he was a terrific 6 to 12 months but just wasn't there for the long haul because there wasn't a willingness to step beyond certain patterns of behavior.

Interestingly, when he finished his master's degree at around 40, his then girlfriend thought he was going to commit himself to an academic career. His mother awarded him with the plane fare to visit his sister, who was then living with her husband in S.E. Asia. As much as he loves Asia, and his sister, he never took the trip. He also never finished his Ph.D. and never pursued an academic career and continued to work half the year. His mother was dismayed. The girlfriend dropped him.

\it wasn't a 75 % committment but rather a kind of inertia.

POM wrote:

"I don't think men want to be extended. I wrote somewhere recently of an experience I had with a man on match.com. I wrote that I loved early music and folk music and he wrote back about how much he loves jazz. I think he thought we were having an argument and I thought we were having a conversation.

A man I met through an activity I enjoy felt perfectly right in his own mind to criticize my taste in music and to use it as an excuse for not pursuing a relationship.

The idea of extension is what lies behind this thread. When I met my ex-boyfriend, a man who actually did extend me in several areas, one of the problems we had was film. Although we haven't spoken in three weeks (yeah! I only broke up with him in 2000.), I know that he is still upset with me for dragging him to 31 short films about Glen Gould which I thought brilliant. On the other hand, I was very upset over The Matrix which I thought hideously ugly, a failed social satire without a point. He couldn't comprehend that I didn't have an interest in 'main stream movies.' I said I didn't read main stream novels and pointed out to him that he was passionate about music that wasn't main stream, so why would he waste his time on kitch in the first run theatres?"



Er, POM - do you not think that a a conclusion - even if only evolving - that "men don't want to be extended" is a bit of a leap? I could counter with many anecdotes of men who were overjoyed to try new things - or women who were not.

I confess, I see your and your ex's arguments about films as mirror images - you didn't want to be extended into mainstream films - it seems you resented his sharing his stuff with you as much as he did you sharing your stuff. One of MY ex's "extended" my taste into mainstream with his joyous abandon to the pleasures of many films that I would not otherwise have seen - ie he was prepared to enter the world of the film, and give it a chance. The Matrix, for instance, is indeed a re-working of very familar SF ground - but, if you are willing to suspend criticism, such films have their own pleasures of style and composition and such... Not that I am trying to persuade you to love The Matrix - but I would see your apparent absolute condemnation of popular culture as similarly resistant to "extension".

Noddy,
While the idea of a bedroom friend would be wonderful in theory, I don't think I am capable of having sex for its own sake. I know as my relationship with both my boyfriend and my husband faded from my part, my sex drive diminished. Make that disappeared.

A man friend, straight or gay, for culture and company would be nice but a lot of men really want or at least say they want committment.

I think as we age, we all get a little too limited.

Since I don't have a real job, it is difficult for me to meet men to develop friendships with. I miss Frank and Harry, two very heterosexual men, with whom I had long running platonic relationships in my 20s. They both, interestingly enough, live in CO.

I recently made an effort to return to things I love -- I subscribed to the Boston Early Music Festival and will usher at the American Repertory Theatre soon. I started attending Friends Meeting after a 28 year hiatus. Maybe these activities will put a man in my path.

I am sorry that I did not leave Michigan for NY or Boston as a young single woman: meeting a man on my own would have been better for me and setting a wedding date prior to my parents meeting him could have meant a better chance for success.

Right now, I miss things like sharing wine after a movie and talking; having a long meal with good conversation; hiking (while I might take urban walks by myself alone and in the daylight, I would not go to the White Mts to hike by myself).

A former woman friend told me that she and her husband read aloud to each other. My ex-husband wasn't willing to try. My boyfriend and I tried it twice, with a book I thought he would like, and he fell asleep both times. He also refused to read aloud to me. That's a little of the sort of things I would like, only with sex.

dlowan,
Well, there is a way in which you are right about our arguments about film being mirror images and while it is too easy to be accused of snobbery (a law Hyacinth Bucket) , I do come from a background in which mass culture was a no-no (freshman college writing classes were one essay after another on mass culture). there is also the time that a couple my ex-husband and I hung around with briefly went to the movies together. Cindy selected, "The Grifters," thinking the boys would love it. Cindy and I hated it for exactly the same reasons I hated, "The Matrix," both were violent and ugly. My former husband, thinking it would sound intellectual to praise the film was cut short by Cindy who asked, "How is your life made better by that movie?" And one can argue that a light romance or comedy makes life better by relaxing the viewer but it is difficult to see how a film you find ugly makes your life better.

This is funny. I went to a free concert at Sanders Theatre, which is part of the Harvard campus, a building that commemorates Harvard alumni who died in the Civil War.

Before the concert, I met someone from the personals, who turned out to be a dud.

During intermission, I walked around and read the plaques and thought about the ages at which some of those men died and the battles they fought in. Suddenly, a man ran up to me and asked if I like to go to concerts as he is always looking for friends to go to concerts and the ballet with.

I said that I had to know more about him than that he enjoys concerts.

he then said he raised his two daughters almost alone as his wife died 12 years ago. he told me other things about himself and then gave me his card.

I read his name once and then again and then touched it with my finger to make certain it was real:he had the same name as the first man I dated after my divorce who I also met when he tried to pick me up in a Harvard building. since i spent so much time looking at his card, I had to tell this guy about the name co-incidence.

Frankly, he activated my gaydar.

I told my daughter and she said she had nothing to do with what sounded like an elaborate practical joke.

I've only read the past few posts here, but I'd have to say about this thing about men not wanting to be extended: I think it depends on the man, and in what area you want to "extend" him. When it comes to new things, either the guy is interested or he isn't. It depends on what it is.

For instance, I just met a woman who introduced me to Fellini, and although I didn't go crazy over the movie we saw, I was interested enough to find out more, and to see more of his movies. On the other hand, I have a friend who wants to take me antiquing. That doesn't sound remotely interesting to me, and I won't waste my time with it. I think the guy has to have at least the seed of an interest in the thing to begin with, or it won't work.

Sorry to interrupt. Enjoy your evening.

kickycan,
You're right about a man having to have a kernel of interest. However, the men in my age range (54-60) participating in the internet personals seem to insist that the woman they wish to meet be a female version of themselves.

Now, I am not going to find my mate among the guys with season tickets for the Patriots, although i wouldn't rule such a person out automatically. However, these guys seem pretty close minded.

Plainoldme, are you really looking for a mate, or are you going through one of those "I'm alone blues" ruts that all single people get into from time to time?

I have been living alone for a long time also, and I get these introspective moments where I think why, why, why can't I find somebody? And there is nobody to support you when these "blues" come on, which makes it hard. Does anyone else get these "blues"?

But, I have to say, that is one of the few disadvantages of being alone, in my opinion. And I still prefer it over being with someone. For now, at least. As you have illustrated in earlier posts, there are a lot of disadvantages to that too.

Maybe you don't really need a "mate". Maybe you just need to meet someone, take them for who they are, enjoy their company, and not worry about the "mate" thing. Sometimes life is all about accepting and adapting.

Ah, the single blues! I know what you mean - sometimes I love it - sometimes gives me the blues....but, I think there are NON-single blues too...

dlowan, I totally agree.