Ack

You said it yourself. She didn't become more hysterical, she calmed down. Coping strategies. socializing. learning. they are learning how to deal with different people and different situations from birth practically, and you have to let them as long as they're not in any danger.

She'll be fine. Probably even the whiny kid will be fine. You'll help her most by stepping back.

This advice, not from the father of the year, but from a bear with five reasonably well adjusted cubs.

Speaking as the auntie to many small children who sob while their parents are around, and then calm down, sometimes within seconds of their parents' departures - I'd suggest hustling out quickly - and not watching. Easier for both of you.

The sozlet has been used to a lot of focussed attention from you. It's great that she is able to calm down quickly once you're out of sight. It's really really great.

The BPBear said it well.

i concur with BPB also. If you had taken her right out of there, you'd sort of be showing her (and the teacher) that no matter what goes on, what the sitch is, that you're going to protect her, or that she's always right. I had to learn (and it was a hard lesson learned) that sometimes, the teachers, having been doing this for ages, know better how kids cope. What I mean by this is that, if you start it, you'll have to continue it....granted the sozlet is only 3, and being nervous in class is certainly acceptable, it can't be turned into the kind of thing where you jump right in and take her away from there....

However - I'd pull that teacher aside and speak to her. I feel very strongly about anyone touching the onyxlets and especially in a harsh manner grabbing away from me. No effin' way.

I'm sure sozlet will be fine, and you never know, is this the first episode of nervousness she's had at the class? Has she had any after you were gone, and you weren't told of it because she calmed down quickly?

My 3 year old has been going to the sunday school nursery for nearly 3 years, and she just suddenly began acting out whenever I take her. Now, I know nothing's going on, she's only doing it because a new friend of hers does it everytime her mom takes her. I speak to her softly, that she needs to str8en up and behave, and she cries and whines, but I walk right out of the room anyway. I think she needs to learn, just like everyone else (talking here about mine, not yours) that there will be some situations that might seem out of place to her, but in small thing like some other kid crying/whining should not effect her to that same degree. She's better now, it took a few weeks. Her friend still whines & cries, but onyxlet (3 yr old) does not.

Tell that teacher not to handle her so roughly, and not to snatch her away from you again.

When you talk to the teacher--or the Head Teacher--about the strong arm stuff, you might suggest that the various chores expected of parents prolong the transition period and allow toddlers (and mommies) too much time for second thoughts.

If the transition details are cast in stone, review them at home and on the way to "Class". First, I will hang up your coat and then....right!, I'll stow the backpack and then....right!, I'll.....

I know from other threads that you and the Sozelet do lots of mother/daughter dramatic play. You might spend some home time with you being clutchy kid and Sozelet being the Hang-it-up, sign-it-out Mommie.

You've probably already had the conversation about the Little Wailing Wonder and talked about what he could possibly have been so unhappy about.

Unfortunately, not all Early Childhood Hires are either well-trained or naturally empathetic. I'd keep a very sharp ear out for anything the Sozelet says about this particular woman--or for that matter any of the other staff. My guess is that the strong arm act was ineptness rather than brutality, but ineptness is also a no-no.

Growing up is fun for the Sozelet, but a bit hard on you.

Talk to the teachers and thell them not to grab and drag your kid? I, like Beth, I've been in this situation often. I am always telling the parents to "just leave!" If they don't, the kids become more and more upset and I have to deal with them after the fact. The more upset they are when their parents leave, the harder it is/the longer it takes to calm them down. I know it is veeeerrrrry difficult to leave your child when she's crying.

Nothing breaks my heart more than a kid pining for his/her parents.

When I was a kid myself (around 9) I was in a situation in which my brothers and sisters and I would only see our parents one day out of the month.

When it came time for my parents to leave I'd take care of my younger siblings.

The departures were horrific, and one thing that I remember that relates to this story is that when the caretakers would physically take my siblings away they'd always go hysterical.

When I was younger I'd attack the adults who I saw doing this to other kids. I was always ready to give them the beating of their lifetimes (even though it never worked out that way).

The use of the force by the adult to separate the child from the parent was despised and simply on that basis my brothers and sisters despised our caretakers.

They became the enemy for their physical imposition and they represented the barrier between them and my parents.

I eventually pursuaded them to let me handle it, I demanded that they stop simply dragging my brothers and sisters away from my parents. I managed to convince them that there was another way. Since they didn't like the sound of their wailing they were willing to explore other options.

What was ultimately the easiest was for me to take care of them alone, and my parents would simply leave without the messy goodbyes.

Afterwards my younger sister would drag me around on a search for my parents. She'd look under the bed where they had slept and it was one of the saddest things I'd seen.

But though sad she'd accept it without the hysteria. She wanted to make sure my parents weren't still around but once satisfying this search she accepted the situation and those around her.

To me, dragging a kid away is more than inept, it's idiotic.

We hated our (otherwise nice) caretakers for it. They were nice people but through their bumbling of the separations they became our enemies.

I think she made a mistake to drag the sozlet away. And I don't think it's a small mistake if it's a habit.

IMO she should let the object of affection be the bad guy, or she gets to be the moster that is parent/child separation. She'd begin to personify the separation because of the way she handled it.

Thanks for your input, everyone. My main gripe is that this was not only traumatic but unnecessary. I was handling it. I know the sozlet well, I know how she operates, I know that if I step back and let the pluses and minuses of the situation become obvious without forcing the issue, she will come around. She was a minute or so away from saying, OK, this is boring, I'm up here in Mama's arms while they're all playing, lemme down.

As Noddy says, I was in the midst of getting outta there, was hung up by procedures. Had no objection to getting out of there, per se, have done that the last several classes (this one) and last dozen or so classes (previous two) with no problem. She hasn't been upset, ever. This took a lot of talking, a lot of role playing, a lot of positive reinforcement afterwards, but not upset, once.

The hanging around and watching was through a window, looking at the reflection in the mirrored wall, she didn't know I was still there.

Anyway, here's what happened:

I showed up early, looked through the window (again, unobserved), she was fine. When the doors opened, I was very careful not to show any concern, was bright-eyed and bushy-tailed and "Wow, I saw you doing the Hokey-Pokey! Were you wiggling your tummy?" Right into positive things about the class. She was a little clingy, but smiley and answering my questions. Then she wandered off to talk to her friend and her friend's little sister, and I cornered the teacher, who did not want to be cornered. I said, together with a look that said "if we were not in a room full of kids I would be putting this much more strongly," "I would prefer that you not handle that situation in that manner in the future." She started to say the parents should leave right away, etc., I said "Yes, I understand that, and was attempting to do so. I did not appreciate your interference, nor the manner in which you interefered." She got a little huffy, a kid came up to ask her something, I gave her one last look and then went back to sozlet.

Sozlet and I went to lunch and talked about what happened, gradually. I didn't lead with it, we talked about other things, then she said that Bridget helped dry her tears. I said oh, that was so nice of Bridget. She's a good friend. Then I said, I'm sorry you were so sad, honey. But it looks like you were very brave. She said that yes she was, and I said I hoped she was proud of herself for being so brave. She said she was.

To loop back a bit, I think the deafness thing was an issue here -- the teacher in question is clearly uneasy about communicating with me (lots of over-enunciating, pausing while she chooses the simplest possible words, that sort of thing) and I think that she decided to just act rather than communicating with me about what needed to or was going to happen. If she got my attention, said, "I'm going to take her now," I would have said something like, "OK, sorry we're taking so long, give me a minute" and if that didn't work, I would have talked to the sozlet to ease the transition. Not just this grabbing her out of my goddamn arms crap. That really ****ing infuriates me. ARGH.

At any rate, I think the sozlet is generally secure enough, has enough grounding in the fact that I'm going to take care of her and not let anything too horrible happen, that she will get over this without too much problem. But if it happens again, she's out of there, and it will take a lot of willpower for me to not do bodily harm to the grabberwoman.

I will be proactive and positive about it, though, will do my utmost not to convey this mindset to the sozlet. I believe I will write a note stating some of this (as non-pedantic as I can make it), and with the contact info that we parents usually have to write each time, so I can just drop that off and begone (that's what takes the most time, there is a line.)

Deep breaths.

She really seems to be fine, and was happy enough to talk about the good stuff, so I think this can end up just being a blip.

Thanks for letting me vent, and for your insights.

And Craven, how sad for you and your siblings.

Soz, I think every parent goes through this at least once, per kid. It's never easy, but you've had great advice from everyone here. I would definitely talk to the teachers regarding communication. unfortunately, as with most examples of ignorance and fear, it'll be up to you, to prove how easy it is, to talk with you.
You might consider asking the head teacher if you could volunteer or spend one day at the school. It may break some boundaries.

Otherwise, the sozlet sound like a typically, delightful little girl, in that... She will always want her mommy, but if you can keep her curious mind occupied and happy, she'll be just fine. She will thrive.

Craven, sometimes..especially in juxtaposition to all the caring and loving parents, people we have on this site, or I have known. I want to scream at the unfairness, the cruelty you have witnessed. Your post up above, made me want to weep.
I hope you have or find the happiness you deserve.

Oddly enough the parents and people I reference tended to be more caring and loving on average than those outside the group. Goes to show that good intentions aren't enough. Good people can do bad things merely through inept stupidity.

Hi Ceili, thanks. Volunteering is not an option (I asked earlier, in another context) -- this is not a school per se, just one class that is held twice a week, two hours each time. So a total of 4 hours a week.

I already had the talk with teachers about communication, first class, plus note. They (or at least one) chose to ignore it. That never goes over very well with me.

This brings up my next question, though -- I am DEFINITELY going to be talking to them further about this, and am trying to figure out which approach I want to take. My immediate inclination is a fairly strongly worded but short (3-4 paragraphs) letter that is given to the teachers (there are two in the class) and cc'ed to their superior. That may be counterproductively hard-nosed, though, since I'm not like trying to get a refund, I want them to be nice to my daughter. She has thus far had major teacher's pet tendencies -- the one who remembers the words to the songs, who cleans up after herself, etc.

I'm thinking just a note to them directly, keep a copy for my own records, explaining some of the background situation (in addition to what I already said, her dad left this morning for a trip, and that makes her sad and ratchets up the separation anxiety a bit), and explaining what I would like to have happen if a similar situation arises. In other words, more focused on avoiding a repeat than yelling at them. Then try to follow up in person after class.



What do you guys think?

I like the second approach.

I also react to the grabbing business with a shudder. There are, aren't there, nice ways around that, not all so time consuming.

Oh Soz - nothing of any import to add - but the dragging stuff sickened me. By all means, get you to go quickly - reassure you and Soz all will be well, mummy is going now, but she will be back - it usually DOES help. But dragging her away??? Yikes!

As Craven says - good intentions are not always enough. I am sure the teacher is skilled and well-intentioned - Soz's happiness there shows us both the security of her bond to you, and her security in the class - sometimes holding little ones gently when mum goes - but dragging???

I agree totally with your no yelling etc approach, Soz.

They must generally be very good - see how happy Sozlet is usually (also, as I said above, a tribute to your parenting because she clearly has a very secure attachment).

Re the note - do communication difficulties/routine in the class preclude personal communication? I only ask because, in my experience, a personal, collegiate problem solving approach is the best first line - and an opportunity for them to discuss their thinking and reasons, and for a really amicable and joint future path - if possible. You are sort of - for a very limited part of the week - co-parenting - and I find it often works if one tries to think of it as a co-parenting problem at first, and approach it as one would a difference with one's partner.

I would tend to think that might be best - if it is REALLY possible, because it sounds as if things have been great so far, and because you do not want prickliness to build up.

If not, a note, of course. (I am just saying what I think, if it sounds as though I am trying to tell you how to suck eggs, I really do not mean to!!!!)

I tend to save the superior stuff for if things cannot be worked out on the ground.

But that is just me.........

Hope it all goes well...

It's good to hear the Sozlet is okay about it. That way, you only have to work out your relation with the teacher.

I think you are working against two biases that are common among teachers. Bias #1: We are professionals who know how to handle children. Parents, by contrast, are incompetent, bleeding heart amateurs. We need to take the initiative, and patronize the parents if necessary. Bias #2: Handicapped people are all a bit retarded. We need to help them, whether or not they want us to.

In this situation, my reaction in your place would be a strongly worded letter to just that teacher, making clear beyond the shadow of a doubt that you will not be pushed around, and that you leave whenever you goddam please. You also want to mention that you are a professional teacher with a college degree, and that your judgment of how to handle such situations is at least as good as hers.

No explanation of the background, except perhaps as evidence that the teacher screwed up. The next time this situation occurs, the background will be different, so why bother with this time's background? The general lesson from this situation is that you know what you're doing, and that you want the teacher to behave accordingly.

Furthermore, I wouldn't cc the letter to the principal. That would come across as weakness; anyway, you can always do that on a higher stage of escalation, should this become necessary. Neither would I send the letter to the other teacher, the one that wasn't involved. If I were in the position of that other teacher, I would get pretty pissed about being included in a collective complaint that I did nothing to provoke. Finally, I wouldn't mention communication problems at this time. It's better to do that when the teachers have an incentive to listen.

To give them this incentive, I would concentrate on just one core message for now: You will not be had intercourse with. And if this wasn't a family newsgroup, I would be putting this a lot stronger.

Good luck!

I like the letter to the teachers only idea. You mentioned about volunteering Soz, will sozlet be going to a real pre-k program in the next school year? the oldest onyxlet goes to one, and it's just great. I know most the pre-k program here in florda allows for parents to volunteer as much as they like, which would give you the opp to be let sozlet have the benefits of the classroom atmosphere while still being w/ you, though not in the same setting as home. I love pre-k, though I'm not able to volunteer very much (sniffle) and so does the onyxlet. It's a plus that her Dad teaches at that school also....

littleK, while I understand that the teacher is in control of the class, not the parents (my husband tells me this OFTEN, it is his mantra i think) I never think there's a reason to grab a child out of it's mother's arms. A simple "Mrs. Soz (hahaha), we'll e starting class in 5 min or so" would lave let Soz know that 1. her kid needs to be in class like the other kiddos, and 2. I see you are handling this sitch, but really, be quick about it please.

Since all else is well, remember that by the laws in most states, every dog is entitled to One Bite--and only One Bite.

I think Thomas has a point that your deafness may be part of the problem. Ms. Grab&Snatch may have though she was being quite clever in "showing" you rather than "telling" you.

Probably a frank, one-to-one conversation with Ms. G&S with you speaking as Professional Deaf Person rather than Mama Tiger would be long-range useful. You are an articulate deaf mother and can be a walking, talking visual aid presentation for handicap requirements.

If necessary, show Ms. G&S how you can lip read across a noisy room--a trick most "normal" mothers can't pull off.

I spent a lot of years supressing my Mama Tiger and educating the masses in to preserve my sons' long range interests. Mama Tiger is the easier role--but tigers are becoming an endangered species.

Hi guys,

Talking about this is helping me focus, thanks.

Dlowan, my first preference would be speaking directly, but I don't know how that could be done, practically speaking. Doing it before class is out, as getting in and out without dallying is the goal. After class is somewhat possible -- I think I would prefer, for the sake of time, to write things down (in a non-yelly way) for them to read and then follow up in person after class. That saves time and allows me to say things the way I want to say them, which is significant when the sozlet is right there. (I don't want to be critical in front of her.)

Beyond that, we would have to schedule some special time, without sozlet, which gets to be a large hassle and also will send their anxieties through the roof.

By the way, both teachers were involved, so I would like to speak to both of them. One did the actual grabbing/ dragging, one held her down (did not let her run away, which she was trying to do) while reading a book to her. <grits teeth>

I wondered about the college degree/ professional teacher part, Thomas, can't decide. I have written a draft of the letter, signed it [my name], M.Ed, that didn't seem quite right. I don't necessarily want to pull rank.

The tone I have settled on so far is more towards professional deaf woman than mama tiger, though the nice part is that by mama tiger using long words, I get to be both.

Oh, I have to get rid of the long words, too, don't I? Hmph. Proactive, proactive, proactive...

I agree about background, trying to keep it simple. I would like it to be read and digested in the time they have available during class, like at snack time.

I do want to mention communication problems, incentive or not. Here's the current closing paragraph, feedback welcomed:



I opened with nice stuff about how much she likes class. Do I need to close with something nice, too? The nice stuff I thought of rang hollow -- I DO want to say that part strongly.

Onyxelle, I agree completely with your #1 and #2 suggestions.