7
   

FINALLY! The Protest movement is targeting our corrupt/incompetent Supreme Court

 
 
NotreDame05
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Oct, 2011 05:58 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Quote:
How is the government deciding who gets heard?

Radio is not the only medium for speech.

That some can speak louder than you doesn't mean you are not being heard.


Radio and TV is still the best route by far to get your messages out to the masses.


The best route is not the only route, and nobody has a free speech right to use the "best route."
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Oct, 2011 06:04 pm
@NotreDame05,
So our Republic is going to last how must longer when the majority of the population is being shut off from meaningful access to public debates due to them not being in the one percent of the population ruling class?

Seem offhand that such a government system is not worth maintaining.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 27 Oct, 2011 06:16 pm
@NotreDame05,
Quote:

You do not have a 1st Amendment right to have your speech to be as voluminous as another speaker's speech and this has never been a right, not even by the Framers or founding generation's understanding of free speech.

There is a Constitution that say Congress shall make no laws concerning free speech.
If radio and TV are avenues of free speech and Congress has made laws allowing only some to have access to those avenues then did Congress make laws concerning free speech?
If they didn't make such laws concerning free speech then are radio and TV not subject to "free speech"?
NotreDame05
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 Oct, 2011 08:35 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:

You do not have a 1st Amendment right to have your speech to be as voluminous as another speaker's speech and this has never been a right, not even by the Framers or founding generation's understanding of free speech.

There is a Constitution that say Congress shall make no laws concerning free speech.
If radio and TV are avenues of free speech and Congress has made laws allowing only some to have access to those avenues then did Congress make laws concerning free speech?
If they didn't make such laws concerning free speech then are radio and TV not subject to "free speech"?


The answer to your first question is no. Radio waves can only tolerate so much traffic before transmission becomes difficult if not impossible. I find it rather ironic you want to be given the opportunity to use the radio waves to transmit your message but as history has demonstrated, unregulated radio waves results in very little speech or in some instances no speech. I find your position tantamount to the principle of if you cannot use the radio waves to transmit your message, then nobody should be able to do so, which is the near result of what would occur without government regulation of the radio waves.

The government regulation of the use of the radio waves was done so people can not only use them for their speech but also to ensure the speech is transmitted. This would be parallel to the following scenario, although certainly not a perfect example. In a public park there is a one day festival and over the tenure of the festival approximately 350,000 people are estimated to attend the festival. People from 20 states or more are expected to come to this festival. As a result, this would be a good opportunity for various groups to express their message and expose it a lot of people from different states.

So, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party, AARP, KKK, NAACP, NAMBLA, Federalist Society, LGBT, AFL-CIO, CLS (Christian Legal Society), American Taxpayers Association, Communist Party of America, Socialist Worker's Party, and the Libertarian Party want to enter the park and give speeches about their political agenda, political goals, beliefs, ideals, and legislative proposals. The only problem is there is only enough room for 8 of the groups. Consequently, the city/county/state/federal government must decide which of the groups may have access to the park to express their views. The city/county/state/federal government makes its determination, not on the content of the message or speech, but a first come, first serve basis, and the numbers each group plans to send to the festival. As a result, not all groups will be able to utilize the park to express their message.

The excluded groups have not had their free speech rights infringed upon. The other groups are still permitted to speak and express their views, but not in the park. The government was forced to act because the capacity of the park only permitted so many members of the groups to be present in the park. The government is acting as a result of a non-speech factor and non-speech consideration, capacity crowd in the park, and not because of or on the basis of speech. As a result of this content neutral, viewpoint neutral speech consideration, the government's action being a response to overcrowdiness, it is not an infringement on the excluded groups free speech rights.
joefromchicago
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 08:52 am
@NotreDame05,
NotreDame05 wrote:
Did I use Scalia's concurrence exclusively? No, you were remissed to ignore the post in which I quoted exclusively language from the majority opinion and then in a separate post relied upon Scalia's concurrence as an amplification of what they were asserting, since I believe them to be making the same point.

I was not commenting on the entire corpus of your work. I was commenting on one post, in which you quoted exclusively from Scalia's concurrence.

NotreDame05 wrote:
Which, I might add, a concurring opinion amplifying what the majority is asserting is not an unknown phenomenon, it happens with some regularity.

Certainly, it happens with some regularity that the author of an opinion cites his or her own concurrence in a previous case, primarily because the author wants to make it clear that he/she was right all along. On the other hand, when someone outside the court cites a concurrence, it's usually to cherry-pick some point that never got five votes.

NotreDame05 wrote:
Furthermore, looking to the concurring opinion for a better understanding of the majority opinion is a practice done by, well, many people in the legal field, such as law professors, judges, Justices, and yes, everyday lawyers.

Not really.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 09:10 am
I'm not a lawyer, but i play one on tee-vee . . .

Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
NotreDame05
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 10:00 am
@joefromchicago,
[quote wrote:
"joefromchicago"]
NotreDame05 wrote:
Did I use Scalia's concurrence exclusively? No, you were remissed to ignore the post in which I quoted exclusively language from the majority opinion and then in a separate post relied upon Scalia's concurrence as an amplification of what they were asserting, since I believe them to be making the same point.

I was not commenting on the entire corpus of your work. I was commenting on one post, in which you quoted exclusively from Scalia's concurrence.

NotreDame05 wrote:
Which, I might add, a concurring opinion amplifying what the majority is asserting is not an unknown phenomenon, it happens with some regularity.


NotreDame05 wrote:
Furthermore, looking to the concurring opinion for a better understanding of the majority opinion is a practice done by, well, many people in the legal field, such as law professors, judges, Justices, and yes, everyday lawyers.

Not really.
[/quote]

Quote:
I was not commenting on the entire corpus of your work. I was commenting on one post, in which you quoted exclusively from Scalia's concurrence.


The "one post" was a continuation of a thought originating in a prior post, and I think was rather obvious based on how I began the "one post." So to treat the latter separately, and indeed independently of the preceding one, as you did, and focus on the latter post was not giving my position a fair review.

Quote:
Certainly, it happens with some regularity that the author of an opinion cites his or her own concurrence in a previous case, primarily because the author wants to make it clear that he/she was right all along. On the other hand, when someone outside the court cites a concurrence, it's usually to cherry-pick some point that never got five votes.


Yeah but this isn't what I am doing.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 10:12 am
ND, are you an attorney? I ask because Joe is an attorney in practice, and not knowing you, while have years of experience of his contributions, i'll take his word over yours.
NotreDame05
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 10:52 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

ND, are you an attorney? I ask because Joe is an attorney in practice, and not knowing you, while have years of experience of his contributions, i'll take his word over yours.


Yes, I am an attorney.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 11:27 am
@NotreDame05,
Then consider me very unimpressed.
NotreDame05
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 11:35 am
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Then consider me very unimpressed.


Impressing you is probably impossible, so no worries. Furthermore, I wasn't trying to impress you, so do not flatter yourself.
NotreDame05
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 11:40 am
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

So our Republic is going to last how must longer when the majority of the population is being shut off from meaningful access to public debates due to them not being in the one percent of the population ruling class?

Seem offhand that such a government system is not worth maintaining.



Wait...what evidence do you have to support your assertion the "majority of the population" is being shut off from meaningful access to public debates?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 01:10 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Of course.. it's equal if one person speaks to a group of 10 and the other is allowed to speak to a group of 500,000.

I'm curious as to which is being heard more?



What's your point?

That government should make sure that anyone and everyone should be able to be heard by 500,000 people?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 01:51 pm
@NotreDame05,
I assure you that flattery does not enter into any interaction i may have with you. I don't flatter myself, and i'd never be so devoid of reason as to want to flatter you.
NotreDame05
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 03:41 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

I assure you that flattery does not enter into any interaction i may have with you. I don't flatter myself, and i'd never be so devoid of reason as to want to flatter you.


Blah, blah, blah.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 03:51 pm
@NotreDame05,
Brilliant reply . . . far above your usual standard.
NotreDame05
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 04:03 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Brilliant reply . . . far above your usual standard.


What?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 04:23 pm
@NotreDame05,
Quote:
So, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party, AARP, KKK, NAACP, NAMBLA, Federalist Society, LGBT, AFL-CIO, CLS (Christian Legal Society), American Taxpayers Association, Communist Party of America, Socialist Worker's Party, and the Libertarian Party want to enter the park and give speeches about their political agenda, political goals, beliefs, ideals, and legislative proposals. The only problem is there is only enough room for 8 of the groups. Consequently, the city/county/state/federal government must decide which of the groups may have access to the park to express their views. The city/county/state/federal government makes its determination, not on the content of the message or speech, but a first come, first serve basis, and the numbers each group plans to send to the festival. As a result, not all groups will be able to utilize the park to express their message.


Are you suggesting that all groups should have access to radio waves? In the case of a park, each group can be given an amount of time to use the park so ALL groups get the opportunity. Shouldn't we provide the same thing for radio waves? This isn't a case about order of when they get to use it. It is a case where some groups NEVER get to use it and the government is there to enforce that they don't get to use it.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 04:24 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:



What's your point?

That government should make sure that anyone and everyone should be able to be heard by 500,000 people?

My point is the government shouldn't choose who gets to speak to 500,000 based on who pays the government the most money.
NotreDame05
 
  0  
Reply Fri 28 Oct, 2011 09:12 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
So, Occupy Wall Street, Tea Party, AARP, KKK, NAACP, NAMBLA, Federalist Society, LGBT, AFL-CIO, CLS (Christian Legal Society), American Taxpayers Association, Communist Party of America, Socialist Worker's Party, and the Libertarian Party want to enter the park and give speeches about their political agenda, political goals, beliefs, ideals, and legislative proposals. The only problem is there is only enough room for 8 of the groups. Consequently, the city/county/state/federal government must decide which of the groups may have access to the park to express their views. The city/county/state/federal government makes its determination, not on the content of the message or speech, but a first come, first serve basis, and the numbers each group plans to send to the festival. As a result, not all groups will be able to utilize the park to express their message.


Are you suggesting that all groups should have access to radio waves? In the case of a park, each group can be given an amount of time to use the park so ALL groups get the opportunity. Shouldn't we provide the same thing for radio waves? This isn't a case about order of when they get to use it. It is a case where some groups NEVER get to use it and the government is there to enforce that they don't get to use it.


I am suggesting an inherent quality of radio waves is the limited capacity. Radio waves can only support so much traffic. Once the traffic reaches a critical point, using them becomes problematic, and difficult to transmit a program, message, or speech. So, to assist those accessing the radio waves and ensuring their speech does get transmitted, the federal government regulates the radio waves, to preclude too many people from inundating the radio waves and effectively drowning out any and all speech, or much of it.
The government regulating the radio waves in which they do not let too many people utilize radio waves is not an infringement upon free speech.

Perhaps equally as important is the consideration the government is not regulating speech but rather regulating radio waves. The government regulation is not based upon the speech of those seeking to use radio waves.

As the Court noted in the decision of Red Lion v. FCC, "Where there are substantially more individuals who want to broadcast than there are frequencies to allocate, it is idle to posit an unabridgeable First Amendment right to broadcast comparable to the right of every individual to speak, write, or publish. If 100 persons want broadcast [395 U.S. 367, 389] licenses but there are only 10 frequencies to allocate, all of them may have the same "right" to a license; but if there is to be any effective communication by radio, only a few can be licensed and the rest must be barred from the airwaves.

Quote:
In the case of a park, each group can be given an amount of time to use the park so ALL groups get the opportunity.


Let's suppose they can't and consequently, some will use the park but others will not. What speech is being infringed upon by being denied access to the park under the facts of my hypothetical?

Quote:
It is a case where some groups NEVER get to use it and the government is there to enforce that they don't get to use it.


This is really the issue, isn't it? The issue is not the fact the government regulates the radio waves but the fact regulation results in, presumably, some people applying for a license to use radio waves to transmit their speech will never be granted the license. A perpetual denial by the government to grant a license to person A does not by itself, without more, constitute as an infringement upon free speech.
 

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