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Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 05:32 am
@djjd62,
I suspect the vultures aren't sure what's going on, either . . .
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 07:59 am
@Setanta,
I know what's going on. There's a low level clash going on between the materialists who think there is nothing behind reality as they define it and those who think there is an unworldly dimension which we cannot know about.

A materialist is bound to think his position threatened if there is an unworldly dimension. Scoffing at attempts to guess the nature of any unworldly dimension does nothing to dismiss the possibility that there is such a thing.

History shows that human intuition senses an unworldy dimension, an unwordly one too, and attempts to give it words. And other symbols.

A threatened position, either way, will be defended vigorously.
Chights47
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 09:07 am
@FOUND SOUL,
FOUND SOUL wrote:
Can anyone be perfect? Or, is it about learning about your mistakes and not making them again which in itself means you have grown.. I don't personally have any goals that pertain to being perfect.. But, I do hope that I continue to learn in all aspects of life and I believe that I do.
I don't not believe anyone will ever become perfect, but should that keep us from trying? It's about bettering ourselves and trying to become that which is perfect. Perfection should be our goal in everything that we do and we should always set goals far beyond ourselves so that we really have something to shoot for. As a child I use to hate how my parent made me feel that I was never good enough because they always wanted more but now I see the wisdom in that. We should never be content with who we are and what we are capable of because we should always strive to be better than that.

FOUND SOUL wrote:
.. I don't think that I stated that I was, rather that I will attempt to think logic before making any conclusions but yes, we are very complex beings, women more so
I can only assume that's what you mean when you state this "I love physcology which also means that I am a logical thinker", but that's not really important. You say that you will attempt to think logically before making a conclusion, then wouldn't it be more logical to say you don't know what happens when a person dies then believing in the supernatural do to the god of the gaps argument? Science has always be the one to overturn supernatural claims and it has never been the other way around.

FOUND SOUL wrote:
You asked me for evidence. I told you I really didn't have any as such. I remember this from a child, hearing it somewhere.. I googled and found pretty much the theory of belief regarding souls, I am sure that there has been a lot of progress but the fact remains, science can NOT prove ghosts exist, or don't exist, let alone souls.. Who can? No one ever will, it's not something that can be understood, only guestimated.. after all you are talking assumingly about the dead. We are alive
Well if something has been sought after for centuries but no meritable evidence has been shown, it's a good indicator that it probably doesn't exist. I'm not saying that the absence of evidence is evidence of absence, just that giving how long this has been researched with no conclusive evidence is a pretty good indicator that ghost and spirits and souls probably don't exist...especially if you say it can never be proven. It's like believing in fairies, leprechans, and flying, fire breathing dragons, while they can't be completely and 100% disproven, neither is there any evidence to support their existence thus, for now, they are deemed to be non-existent.

FOUND SOUL wrote:
I won't ever talk for everyone, or assume that everyone should listen to me, I am in-deed merely saying my point of view as 1 person, so yes that was my intention. I find the whole thing facinating, given my own experiences and in reading others and in the "un-known" non-factuals and not proven. I merely have to make my own judgement calls as you do.
That's refreshing, I can only wish that all believers in the supernatural were as seemingly level headed as you (as in you seem level headed but I don't feel that I know you well enough to state that with any real authority).

FOUND SOUL wrote:
And, that's your prerogrative.. You prefer to have facts in the answers of science even though it will never be proven one way or the other. Whilst I prefer to assume there has to be something beyond Earth and human life and there has to be spirits/ghosts/souls, because of my "own" experience... that's my prerogrative.. It's just people's opinions at the end of the day.
Would you be interested in watching a rather long, but very informative video about the psychological processess of the mind which lead people to believing they have super natural experiences? It's honestly about an hour long so I would understand if you wouldn't want to watch it, but as a lover of psychology, I figured you just might be interested.

FOUND SOUL wrote:
Yes it did. That was my answer, and then I elaborated on it. The problem is you want me to answer that question to suit the type of reply you want. It doesn't work that way, an answer is an answer if that is what I feel, then that is what I feel.. Like I said, I believe there is a God, there is a Devil and I therefore believe it depends on who won at the end.. That's my belief, sorry about that..
We could go at this forever, I still maintain that you didn't give a specific answer, the only "answer" that you gave was "But, yes, I do, in any event" which isn't really an answer to my questions at all and the rest is just stating possibilities. But that is besides the point now and there's no reason to keep bringing it up, there is an aswer now and that's all that really matters.

FOUND SOUL wrote:
There is only one soul... yet if they are split, or divided, only the strongest part of that soul will win and if there is a God and a Devil, then both would have been fighting over their sides.. If he had 25 years, I still stated I would guess it would be the good side of him... 2/3rd of his life, in logic would agree if that is how a war begins and ends.
So then what happens to the other 1/3rd of his life? Does it factor in at all or is it just wiped from existence? What if it was completely even, factoring in any bias to the good side, for example if 50-50 would be given to good what about 49-51 to make up for the difference (or something along those lines).
Chights47
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 09:15 am
@spendius,
Possibilities don't matter in least, it's only probabilities that have any real weight. It's possible that I will remanifest on a life supporting planet with dozens of the worlds hottest women to repopulate that world with...should I be holding my breath for it though? Recent psychological breakthroughs have shown us that religious and supernatural beliefs are just by-product of natural psychological processes, such as hyperactive agency detection and intuitive reasoning.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 10:51 am
@Chights47,
Yes but possibilities are low level probabilities.

Your little fantasy, much as I approve of it, is using words for that which is not subject to language.

Hyperactive agency detection and intuitive reasoning, which must be natural to exist, cannot be dismissed with that sort of example.

Only faith can dismiss it.



XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 12:20 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Yes but possibilities are low level probabilities.

Your little fantasy, much as I approve of it, is using words for that which is not subject to language.

Hyperactive agency detection and intuitive reasoning, which must be natural to exist, cannot be dismissed with that sort of example.

Only faith can dismiss it.

Perfectly said in my book! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 12:52 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
Spades, here is the thing.

You know by starting a thread like this you are going to get those that dis-agree with you. Those that don't believe full stop and those that question so want to just read.....

My thoughts are this... Believe in what you will. Me too.. Others as well.. After all life is about choices..

But, it's allowed me to question things, trying to work out where it fits in...

That's an amazing thing, that in itself...

Don't get mad, don't get even.. Just be you and don't read into things... just be you.

Thanks A lot Found Soul! It is very encouraging, to see someone who cares about people...And give good, honest introspection's of things without being ill-mannered...With which I do at times....

I appreciate the kind words...And wish and will try to be a better person...always, and when I fall, apologize for the mistake....

In terms of some on here...I am not sure the damage is repairable...

But I would be willing if they were!

I do care about others...and appreciate the honesty...It goes a long way for me...

I am gonna work on bettering myself, and refraining from such defiling conversations...

But the thing is, In my human flaw, that is one of my weaknesses...

And it is hard for me to truly turn the other cheek...Unless people are willing to meet in the middle grounds, and show they are sorry as well...

Till then, I find it hard to forget the hurtful things that are said...and I understand they may feel the same way about me being hurtful...

That is why on my profile it says...If I have hurt anyone here, I apologize...because I really mean well...

And my goal is not to fight....

But it is rather hard for me to turn away sometimes...Looking at myself, with self-honesty, it is A flaw of my own! Thanks for the words anyway! It gives me inspiration!

You really do understand the God thing...And it makes no difference that you have not read scriptures...If you can relate to someone who has...And tell and speak words of encouragement....then you get it!!

Keep doing your thing! Wink Wink You are on a good path!! Wink Wink Very Happy Very Happy 2 Cents
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 01:16 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
And to "prove" this is how I feel, and I am not blowing smoke up anyones ass, I will prove it!

Feeling compelled right now, by the kind words of inspiration you have given me!!
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 01:17 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta, I am sorry for all the hurtful **** I have said to you...I do not wish to be an enemy of yours any longer...I do not wish for you to apologize to me, if you do not want too...

Just one question, Do you wish to start over, and maybe be friends one day??

I am willing to do that
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 01:38 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
I have no interest in being your friend, you and i have nothing in common. At the same time, i have no interest in fighting you. Whether or not that happens will depend on whether or not you lash out at me again.
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 01:55 pm
@Setanta,
I am fine with that...If we are not fighting, than I would consider that much better than what takes place between us...

If we are civil, I can deal with you not having an interest in being my friend....And respect it...
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 01:59 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
I tried! Wink Wink Very Happy

It wasn't easy for me to do! But I did...

I am afraid most of the damage is unrepairable...

I can not do anything else but be as civil as I can be!

Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 02:04 pm
Sickening . . .
0 Replies
 
XXSpadeMasterXX
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 02:17 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Wake up sleepy head! Just kidding! have a great night sleep! It must be 4:16 a.m. there...See you later in your morning, and evening or early morning here!

Tell me what you think of those links I sent you??

(Thru pm)...Have you read them yet??
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 03:15 pm
@XXSpadeMasterXX,
Quote:
I tried!

It wasn't easy for me to do! But I did...

I am afraid most of the damage is unrepairable...

I can not do anything else but be as civil as I can be!


Smile Good morning Spades, it's 6am, I be awake. I just checked and yep my reply to you via PM is there, having watched the two links, have a read... I'm going to play the second song lots, cause it's one of my favourites ....

I read, " there will be no more fighting, if you don't diss him" so to me, that means there was a truce.. Smile
0 Replies
 
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 03:42 pm
@Chights47,
Quote:
Perfection should be our goal in everything that we do and we should always set goals far beyond ourselves so that we really have something to shoot for. As a child I use to hate how my parent made me feel that I was never good enough because they always wanted more but now I see the wisdom in that. We should never be content with who we are and what we are capable of because we should always strive to be better than that.


A person who is a failure, is a person who gave up trying, not one who lost and tried. I am definately a goal orientated person.. I am onto my third business, and won't give up until I succeed but what is success? To me, I agree, it's something you shoot for and don't give up until you succeed.

As a child I hated the way my parents wrapped me in cotton wool, or stated you will never be a singer, or your neck is too long to be a Model... But, I did both.. Their wisdom to me was old fashioned, tough love, did it make me stronger though and a will and desire to prove them wrong? Yes...to a point, at around 25 I realised, it was time to live for me.. Since then, even if my Mother said, I "hate your red lipstick", I would turn around and say "Well, you're not wearing it I am and I like it"... We have a good relationship now, all-be-it she still has to be right all the time Smile I can say that I am happy within myself, and because of that, I can and do accept people for who they are. I think the two go together.

Quote:
I can only assume that's what you mean when you state this "I love physcology which also means that I am a logical thinker", but that's not really important. You say that you will attempt to think logically before making a conclusion, then wouldn't it be more logical to say you don't know what happens when a person dies then believing in the supernatural do to the god of the gaps argument? Science has always be the one to overturn supernatural claims and it has never been the other way around.


I'm a very deep person, that and a Gemini Smile I may say something but I will do more than just that, there is more to me than just being.. The internet is a hard place to show who you are totally.

Perhaps logical isn't the right word.. I will or did, view things as they occured, questioned it, trying to find a possible that made sense, in this World.. It could have been the wind, maybe I just guessed.. But, ultimately, when so many things happen you end up thinking, ok, there has to be something outside of this World I can't find the answer, or explain it. Reading minds? I can explain, our minds are powerful, it makes sense that some people are capable of somehow talking to each other without speaking.. Reading ahead of time, let me give you one or two more quick examples. For instance, I experimented with reading jewelery, jokingly. I wrote down the things that came to thought.. I told my ex husband that he would be driving in the hills and to turn right, instead of left and to be careful.. 3 Weeks later, he rang me whilst up in the hills, he turned left not right and a truck un-loaded it's goods on his car, fortunately only the front hood and so he was safe... Once, a guy was getting bullied on a Forum, I PM'd him and said, "Why aren't you telling them that she was your girlfriend for 7 years, that would stop all the arguements?" He came back and stated " How did you know that? I never wrote that anywhere, I was with her for 7 years ?" And, honestly I had no friggen idea where that came from.. So, would some people see that also as "spritiual?".. Not many people have that gift. What is the gift? How can that be explained ? I can't and so I see it as a gift and spritual...

I can't say I don't know what happens when a person dies.. Because, I do.. Yes, logic says "I don't know" but I can't walk into a jaol without feeling over-whelmed with thickness surrounding me, I've seen what I call ghosts in my life, I tried to explain it, but I know the first time, I was definately awake, after all I sat up to be sure and it disappeared. I know that my Grandmother's apron even though she tied it in a knot, would keep un-doing and fall on the ground in front of us in the same house.. I know that logic says if you are blowdrying your hair and the hair dryer is pointing to the wall on the other side, papers on the wardrobe can't just fall down with gusto, when the air is blowing in the opposite direction.. So to me, logic is, to me and only to me, that souls live past our bodies and so, that's the end of that story. No point going on as you say, I have to go with my own gut feeling, as you do.

Quote:
Would you be interested in watching a rather long,


I'm always up for learning and I'll take what seems to fit in with my thoughts as well as "oh, that makes sense", so absolutely and thank you.

But, if this video explains the apron, then I will believe there is no ghosts Smile

Quote:
So then what happens to the other 1/3rd of his life? Does it factor in at all or is it just wiped from existence? What if it was completely even, factoring in any bias to the good side, for example if 50-50 would be given to good what about 49-51 to make up for the difference (or something along those lines).


I can almost visualise now this dude, walking around as soul with a split personality, changing from one side to the other... Now that would make more sense.

How can we predict this honestly, like you said this would go on forever.....Smile
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 04:20 pm
@FOUND SOUL,
Quote:
The internet is a hard place to show who you are totally.


I am not sure that I can agree because I think that you and Ryan totally try to be yourselves here and I could not image you doing that anywhere else in front of complete strangers.

I think the internet is a good place to meet others who think like you do and others who do not.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 04:34 pm
@Setanta,
There are NO arguements that suggest metaphysical naturalism, atheism or a physical necessity for objective moral values.

Utilitarian has been refuted by many philosophical arguements, and good and bad have yet to be derrived to axioms or physical law, moral knowledge appears to be impossible.

Your suggested "utilitarian" arguement of "social science" does not suggest objective moral values, it is self refuting, being that your suggestion in fact satisfies deontological conditions, such as your pressuposed informal rules.

Furthermore, deontology is of normative ethics, as an example, you stated "benefits the community", however this entails the regress arguement, it may be deconstructed by why questions until the moral assertion can express a truth value, hence it is not logically valid.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 04:42 pm
@Setanta,
As for naturalism, If I were to analyse the metabolism of a prokaryote cell, beng of extreamophilic functionality, would this suggest the syntactical or semantical referrence, "benefits the community" valid?

This is cognitive biased, conscious entities or inanimate entities are of no exceptions, natural science is positive, it requires operationalisation.

By definition any social application deviates from natural science.

You realise that "social science" is open to "qualitative research", how is this valid?

This erroneous practice is relative to paraconsistent logic, that being logicians attempting to converge formal and informal systems, it is by definition, logically inconsistent, just as by definition this fuzzy "social research" is naturalistically inconsistent.
FOUND SOUL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 Apr, 2012 04:47 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
I am not sure that I can agree because I think that you and Ryan totally try to be yourselves here and I could not image you doing that anywhere else in front of complete strangers.

I think the internet is a good place to meet others who think like you do and others who do not.


Trust me, I am an open book, what I speak here, I'd say to a stranger because am I who I am, no point trying to pretend to be anyone different, nor would I like to be, figger we have one life and one life only, might as well be who you are and those that don't like you, don't have to stick around Smile But, I appreciate your comments, I certainly do try to be myself in all aspects and it's interesting, over the years I have noted that people tend to "try" to be themselves in this anonymous world, called the Internet if under an assumed name.

Kel.

 

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