52
   

Question to those who do or do not doubt Christianity

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 05:18 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Frank doesn't do reasonable argument igm. He just does a skein of evasions, denials, accusations and sneerings to accompany his repetitions and he knows that most viewers will have forgotten what was being evaded or denied or being accused of and will believe what he says because it says so in the post and the sneers will stick to you like **** to a blanket in his estimation.


Hey, Spendius. Having a bad day at the pub?

Not sure why you don't take it out on the guys there rather than posting something like this about me.

Of course, giving a bunch of crap to someone thousands of miles away probably saves you from some serious ass-kicking, so I guess I really do understand.

Be my guest. I love ya, Buddy. And if I can make your life more bearable by being the brunt of remarks like this...I say, "Go for it."

And if I owe you an answer to any question, just send it my way again. I respond to everything...and answer all questions after they are asked in a comprehensible way.

izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 05:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I respond to everything...and answer all questions after they are asked in a comprehensible way.

You say that, but have you ever considered that before you respond the way you do, and take into account what has been said or considered before you said that?
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 05:43 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
If you have an interest in human nature and human evolution you may find value in this 4 minute video.

It was of mild interest.
0 Replies
 
Sturgis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 05:48 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Frank doesn't do reasonable argument igm. He just does a skein of evasions, denials, accusations and sneerings to accompany his repetitions and he knows that most viewers will have forgotten what was being evaded or denied or being accused of and will believe what he says because it says so in the post and the sneers will stick to you like **** to a blanket in his estimation.
If you ever actually took the time to read what Frank Apisa posts, he writes clearly, comprehensively of his beliefs. I've never seen him go on a mission of evasion or sneers. He's a wise man.
Sturgis
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 05:50 am
Get to work ItP, I made several posts yesterday and they are all sorely in need of your usual 'thumbing down'. One thing which really eats at me though is why you felt it necessary to thumb down an obituary thread I started. I mean really Izzy have you fallen that incredibly low?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 06:19 am
@Sturgis,
Quote:
If you ever actually took the time to read what Frank Apisa posts, he writes clearly, comprehensively of his beliefs. I've never seen him go on a mission of evasion or sneers. He's a wise man.


Thank you Sturgis. That was kind of you to mention. I consider your comments to be well thought out and well written also.

(Golf delay. Holiday and the reservations are full. I will have trouble getting out for an hour or so, so I've checked in to see what is happening.)
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 06:29 am
@igm,
I’ve stated my agnosticism on several occasions. On the question of “What Is The REALITY of existence?”…I unequivocally state that I do not know.

Specifically, to the issue of whether there are gods involved or if there are no gods involved, I unequivocally state that I do not know. To that specific, I often add that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence in either direction to make a meaningful guess in either direction. (Nothing wrong with guesses, providing the guesses are based on something rather than mere blind guesses.)

Gods, as you mentioned, are invisible entities (we can’t see, hear or detect in any way) that may or may not influence events in the universe.

If you are asking if I am agnostic on other entities that we cannot see, hear, or detect and which may or may not influence events here in the universe….I am. I do not know if there are or are not any other invisible entities of that sort.

If you are going to propose some…and acknowledge that you are simply making them up for the sake of this discussion…I would more than likely say that in this instance I do have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess about the entities that you propose.

What do you see as inconsistent about that?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 06:31 am
@Frank Apisa,
That last response, igm, was because Izzy was inferring that I was avoiding your question. I was not. But since I am not sure of what you were asking, I decided to guess about the question and respond to my guess. If I missed your point, please clarify it, and I will respond to that.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 06:40 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

That last response, igm, was because Izzy was inferring that I was avoiding your question.


No I wasn't, and if I was, I would be implying. I was responding to your use of the word 'comprehensible,' by having a bit of a joke and posting an incomprehensible question, which you managed to comprehend.

Seriously, I don't think you've avoided questions, I was just having a laugh that's all.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 08:44 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
Seriously, I don't think you've avoided questions, I was just having a laugh that's all.


But, izzy, you might have missed the main point of the post I did with reference to Frank's technique which reminds me of the muttering to themselves that one sometimes see an old cock sat in the inglenook of an old fashioned pup engaging in whilst moping over a pint of real ale which is sipped in order to make it last all night on the sound economic calculation that the pint is cheaper than the coal he would use if he sat in front of his own fire.

The main point was that viewers reading his latest post will either have not seen the evasions, accusations and careful misreadings, the mutterings, to which I was referring, or forgotten them. Or a combination of both. They are readily forgotten you must admit. And to such a person Frank's replies to my points on the artificial contraception etc threads will not be being cognised and his bullet points will be accepted as a true and proper reflection. Which is understandable. But I have not forgotten them. I have forgotten individual replies of the type I mentioned but not the general cloud of obfustication which envelops them all and which has the consistency similar to that of a mixture of porrige and cotton-wool after half an hour in a cement mixture.

And, as you can see just above, or possibly on the previous page if this post goes to the next page, that Frank breaks the first rule of polite conversation. As does the poster with whom he engaged in a brief back-scratching session.

As a well educated Englishman you will know that one only ever praises a person with whom one disagrees. For his style. Or for her style. When one praises a lady for her style one is declaring a fundamental disagreement with her. Which there is because agreeing with her is a very dangerous path to tread.

When one praises somebody else one is praising oneself if the praise represents agreement with the person. And in this case it can't possibly be the style. And how impolite is it to be caught praising oneself? Or even suspected of doing? It's naff.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 09:25 am
@spendius,
I've noticed that Frank can be a bit lary. If you think he's obfuscating, then don't let him. He seem to be doing this by claiming your questions are incomprehensible, although he managed to get some meaning from my Sir Humphryesque question. Therefore list your questions in bullet form, and try to avoid any fun and games, although it is tempting.

Those old boys nursing a pint tend to hang out together, I don't think it's just the cost of fuel that bonds them together.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 09:41 am
@Frank Apisa,
On the question of comprehensibility. Let me try to comprehend your latest post:

Frank Apisa wrote:
On the question of “What Is The REALITY of existence?”…I unequivocally state that I do not know.

You have repeated this question many times but what does it mean? The word ‘reality’ is synonymous with the word ‘existence’ so ironically given what you’ve said about the comprehensibility of my post you are effectively saying: ‘What is the reality of reality?’ or ‘What is the existence of existence?’. This is incomprehensible! Philosophically it would be better if you said something like: ‘What is the true nature of reality’ or ‘What is the nature of existence’. I hope I’m not sounding to pedantic. So can you rephrase and redefine your agnosticism so that I can better understand what you, ‘do not know’. My guess is you don’t understand the true nature of reality or put another way the true nature of existence. How would you phrase it?

Frank Apisa wrote:
Specifically, to the issue of whether there are gods involved or if there are no gods involved, I unequivocally state that I do not know. To that specific, I often add that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence in either direction to make a meaningful guess in either direction. (Nothing wrong with guesses, providing the guesses are based on something rather than mere blind guesses.)

Here you’ve started a new paragraph and you state that gods are involved or not, in something? I’m left having to guess what you mean. Can you explain what the gods are, or are not, involved in? My guess is the creation of the universe or the laws of physics or some such thing am I correct?

Frank Apisa wrote:
Gods, as you mentioned, are invisible entities (we can’t see, hear or detect in any way) that may or may not influence events in the universe.

I have never mentioned (please quote me) that gods are invisible entities. I said that they are ‘imagined’. No wonder you can’t comprehend my post because you haven’t be able to read my post without imagining words I haven’t written. If you read my post understanding the significance of ‘gods’ as imagined and not invisible then you may understand the point I was making.

Much of the rest of what you say is about ‘invisible entities’ which is not what I posted. My post is about imaginary things. There lack of visibility is not the point. The fact that they are ‘imaginary’ is what is important because all imaginary things are equal.

Frank Apisa wrote:
If you are going to propose some…and acknowledge that you are simply making them up for the sake of this discussion…I would more than likely say that in this instance I do have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to make a meaningful guess about the entities that you propose.

What do you see as inconsistent about that?

I am not making up anything I’m defining a human quality that of imagination. One imagined thing is equal to another i.e. gods and also all absurd imagined things. You have moved the goal posts if this is what I think it is: in the past you have said that an absurd imagined thing e.g. (add your on absurd imagined thing here) is different to the ‘gods’ which the human mind also imagines. If this is true get ready for the derision of having to take all the ‘flying spaghetti monster’ jibes coming your way.

Your position in order to avoid this is to defend why imaginary gods are superior to other imagined things? This is the simple question you asked for. I await your reply knowing that you’re not one to avoid a simple question.

Also, please don’t forget that you need to make your agnosticism comprehensible as I mentioned in my opening paragraphs.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 09:42 am
@izzythepush,
I gave up. It was like wrestling with an oily octopus in a glass tank.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 10:18 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

I gave up. It was like wrestling with an oily octopus in a glass tank.

Oh, by the way... I agree completely with your last few posts, made more enjoyable by your 'turn of phrase'.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 12:08 pm
@igm,

Okay, igm, let’s take one item from your last post:

You quoted me saying: “Gods, as you mentioned, are invisible entities (we can’t see, hear or detect in any way) that may or may not influence events in the universe.”

You then wrote:

Quote:
I have never mentioned (please quote me) that gods are invisible entities. I said that they are ‘imagined’. No wonder you can’t comprehend my post because you haven’t be able to read my post without imagining words I haven’t written. If you read my post understanding the significance of ‘gods’ as imagined and not invisible then you may understand the point I was making.


Igm, you said gods were entities that “we can’t see, hear or detect in any way.” I quoted that directly from you.

http://able2know.org/topic/176688-145#post-4948769

An entity that you cannot see, hear or detect in any way…is an invisible entity.

Your protestations that you did not say it are merely distractions…a distinction without a difference.

You came into this conversation saying you wanted to explain what Bill meant in his post to me. I welcomed you…and hoped that we could have a reasonable conversation. I still do.

Let’s get away from the distractions…and back to the issue at hand.

How do you determine that the likelihood of gods is near to zero?

Give me your one best, most compelling reason for coming to that assertion.

We can discuss it.
igm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 12:58 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Igm, you said gods were entities that “we can’t see, hear or detect in any way.” I quoted that directly from you.

http://able2know.org/topic/176688-145#post-4948769

An entity that you cannot see, hear or detect in any way…is an invisible entity.


I have NEVER used the word 'entity'. I have only talked about 'imagination'. I cannot see, hear, or detect in any way what you imagine. Gods are imaginary because we cannot detect them.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe you've just been winding me up... thanks for the lesson... bye Frank!
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 01:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Hi frank don't you just love these kinds of discussions? I do.

Quote:

Igm, you said gods were entities that “we can’t see, hear or detect in any way


I did not see where he said that a God or Gods were entities. An entity is something that exists by itself and what he said was we can’t see, hear or detect in any way the existence of gods therefore our imagination creates the idea of gods.

He is saying you can only imagine a God the same way you can imagine a tooth fairy You never seen a God and you never seen a tooth fairy and you never seen evidence to support one more than the other but do you give a possibility for either one to exist? if so what is the reason for giving a possibility that one of them could exist and not the other?





Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 01:52 pm
@reasoning logic,
RL

The use of the word entity in that context was appropriate.

In any case, the discussion at hand was f0r igm to offer evidence that reasonably confirms the assertion that the existence of gods is close to zero.

If igm would stick to that...this other stuff would not be coming up.

My question for Bill or igm still is: How do you come to your assertion that the existence of gods is close to zero?

I suspect there is about as much chance of anything realistic being offered is about equal to the chance of a theist offering anything realistic to confirm an assertion that it is almost absolute that a GOD exists.

Both theists and atheists offer their assertions because they guess those assertions to be correct. Neither theists nor atheists offer anything remotely like true evidence in defense of "There almost certainly is a GOD" or "The chance of gods is almost zero."
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Have the courtesy not to assume that all atheists assert that are not, or even care if there are any gods.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 6 Apr, 2012 02:18 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Have the courtesy not to assume that all atheists assert that are not, or even care if there are any gods.


But I do, Set.

Even if only in deference to you.

f.
 

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