Islam miracles.

Child marriage was not that uncommon among the upper classes in late antiquity. This is a typical example of condemning a group for practices that are completely acceptable during a given period in history. It demonstrates the narrowminded-ness and poor education of its author..

I do believe that all religions have their problems, but IMHO there are very different degrees.

The restoration of religion to the sphere of the personal, its depoliticization, is the nettle that all Muslim societies must grasp in order to become modern. The only aspect of modernity interesting to the terrorists is technology, which they see as a weapon that can be turned on its makers. If terrorism is to be defeated, the world of Islam must take on board the secularist-humanist principles on which the modern is based, and without which Muslim countries' freedom will remain a distant dream.

thats my point mesquite. It seems to me that Western societies have somehow been able to move on from repressive religious dogma, whereas Islam has resisted change and has held those societies back. In its day Islam was pretty progressive. The trouble is its hey-day was probably the 14th century.

During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after doing its duty in but a lazy and indolent way for eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumbscrews, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry. Who discovered that there was no such thing as a witch -- the priest, the parson? No, these never discover anything. At Salem, the parson clung pathetically to his witch text after the laity had abandoned it in remorse and tears for the crimes and cruelties it has persuaded them to do. The parson wanted more blood, more shame, more brutalities; it was the unconsecrated laity that stayed his hand. In Scotland the parson killed the witch after the magistrate had pronounced her innocent; and when the merciful legislature proposed to sweep the hideous laws against witches from the statute book, it was the parson who came imploring, with tears and imprecations, that they be suffered to stand.

There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.

It is not well worthy of note that of all the multitude of texts through which man has driven his annihilating pen he has never once made the mistake of obliterating a good and useful one? It does certainly seem to suggest that if man continues in the direction of enlightenment, his religious practice may, in the end, attain some semblance of human decency.

Quote:

If anyone can show me 2 opposing Qurans which we use, then they have a point.

Even in the modern era, differences exist, even between publishers.

Q-Kid "Is the Quran Gods Words??
I still havent seen why I should believe otherwise."


Of course it isn't. None of the religious documents are. They were written by men. If g-d really wanted us to hear him he would not make himself only manifest by man and so ambiguous. G-d is all powerful and would make you able to automatically understand. G-d would not have to be limited by means only men can use.

Religions that stem from books are, without a doubt, from men. They are methods of social control with the backing of mythology. This does not mean there is or is not a g-d, but the books are not from g-d. This also does not mean the books are not useful - some of them have good moral codes.

Think of anything that other humans tell you is not falsifiable (cannot, ever, be proven wrong no matter what, is itself the ultimate truth.) You will only find this pattern in forms of totalitarian social control: in imposing corrrupt governments, cults, and many religions. Anything that is non-falsifiable is untrue. Truth must come from observation, not by some "ultimate source." And, where totalitarian governments can only threaten with punishments of this lifetime or ending it, religon can threaten with an eternity of punishment - death, the great unknown- and does - in order to keep it's followers strictly believing.

You can test your religion to see if it is non-falsifiable - try to deny part of it and say it is untrue. Are you allowed to do that? Will it condemn you or make the rest of the reading incorrect? Now try to deny all or half of it and say that it is untrue. How does the religion/government punish you for your dissenting beliefs?

Here's a question for Qkid,

If "God created everything" why did he create the Shi'ites who indulge in self mutilation or the Sunni's who blew them up while they were doing it last week in Iraq ?

hobitbob,

If you check out my (numerous) threads you will note that I have declared myself to be an atheist who believes ALL organized religion tends to be evil. This particulat thread is about Islam and I respond accordingly.

By the way Qkid I don't think you answered a previous question of mine about Mohammed's intercourse with a nine year old girl.

Thanking you in anticipation

Portal Star wrote:

You can test your religion to see if it is non-falsifiable - try to deny part of it and say it is untrue. Are you allowed to do that? Will it condemn you or make the rest of the reading incorrect? Now try to deny all or half of it and say that it is untrue. How does the religion/government punish you for your dissenting beliefs?

Yes the Quran was written by men, I am not saying that. I am saying the Quran even though written by men, was revealed to prophet Muhammed pbuh through the angel Gabriel. And this revelation is the exact words of God. The Arabic words are the exact words of God. Do you know how huge this claim is?? I want all of you to think if the Quran is the exact words(verbatim) of God, then what does it actually mean. How must the language be, shouldnt it be the best work of literature ever then, etc???

This is a real funny question. Cmon. You know what I mean by He created everything. After He did that, He gave us free will, I think you know whats the answer to this.

mesquite wrote:

Hobitbob, I Don't know why you think the apostates site is run by a fundamentalists christian group. Here is a quote from the second paragraph of the home page.

Quote:

What we believe:

Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others they way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule.

Does not sound like any fundamentalist christian site to me. Here are their goals.

Quote:

What is our goal?

We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.

Do you disagree with those goals?

The bit you highlighted pretty much demonstrates that the site is beneath contempt. That you seem to agree with it says a great deal. How does this differ from the opnions of groups who wish to "eradicate" other groups?
.

I'm pretty much through with this thread, since between your "brain off, full speed ahead" fundamentalism, and the "Islam must be eradicated" bigotry of others on this thread, there is no longer any room for reasonable discussion.

Qkid, there is little doubt Mohammed's marriage to Aisha was consummated. This was not an unusual practice for dynastic alliances in the seventh century. As for your insistence that the Q'uran remains unchanged, you remind me of the loonies who insist that Jesus spoke English because the King James version of the Bible is in English (of cource, that puts you up there with Tom DeLay, so you are in distinguished, if malevolenbt, company!). I'm pretty much through with this thread, since between your "brain off, full speed ahead" fundamentalism, and the "Islam must be eradicated" bigotry of others on this thread, there is no longer any room for reasonable discussion.

Qkid

<<[Scriptural Evidence] Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64: Sahih Bukhari [themost venerated and authentic Islamic source]Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then
she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).>>

Dates commonly accepted by scholars: Birth Muhammad(570), birth
Aisha(614 or 615). Bethrothal(620 or 621), Consummation of marriage(623
or 624). In particular the "consummation" of marriage is said to have
taken place after the hidjra in Shawwal 1 or 2.

What's your source ?

QKid wrote:

Portal Star wrote:

You can test your religion to see if it is non-falsifiable - try to deny part of it and say it is untrue. Are you allowed to do that? Will it condemn you or make the rest of the reading incorrect? Now try to deny all or half of it and say that it is untrue. How does the religion/government punish you for your dissenting beliefs?

Yes the Quran was written by men, I am not saying that. I am saying the Quran even though written by men, was revealed to prophet Muhammed pbuh through the angel Gabriel. And this revelation is the exact words of God. The Arabic words are the exact words of God. Do you know how huge this claim is?? I want all of you to think if the Quran is the exact words(verbatim) of God, then what does it actually mean. How must the language be, shouldnt it be the best work of literature ever then, etc???

This is a real funny question. Cmon. You know what I mean by He created everything. After He did that, He gave us free will, I think you know whats the answer to this.

The Quaran was written by men. What I am saying is that it was only written by men. If g-d wanted to do somthing he/she/it would not have to only use methods that men can. He/she/it would not have to leave no evidence behind of their intervention. It was men who wrote those books, and people who wrote all the other religious books in the world. There was no divine ear whispering involved. You are worshipping the words of men.

Correct me if I am wrong: Your religion is non-falsifiable - you will be punished if you disbelieve with all or part of it. You wil go to hell if you don't believe, under this system. That is the punishment for questioning - burning for the rest of eternity - under this religion you chose.

The reason you are given the "free will" answer is because the people who tell you about this g-d they made up want you to belive in it. They want to scare you into behaving like they want you to - in a way they think is a good way for you to behave. In order to prevent you from noticing that your life is just like everyone else's life on this earth, whether or not you believe in this g-d, they use the concept of free will. They tell you if somthing bad happens, it is a test. If somthing good happens, it is his blessing. These are not bad outlooks to have in life, but think about it. Would it be possible for good and bad things to happen without a g-d? Isn't "free will" just a way of explaining why bad things happen to good people even though their g-d is supposed to be watching over them? Bad things happen to good people because there isn't a moralistic g-d watching over them. They are responsible for their own lives and destiny.

Qkid,

So by your own admission (or expediency) you now claim you don't know whether Mohammed was what we call a pedophile or not. The salient point is that if he was (as evidenced by the cited reports of learned Islamic scholars) then how do you justify respect in him as "God's Prophet" ? As an atheist that's not my problem but it IS problematic for anybody who claims that Islam is based on conventional or "superior" morality. To deny that problem merely confirms in the mind of your opponents the irrationality and potential danger of Islam.