From Qkids post, my comments in red
Steve asked how come none of the original Quran's has survived.
No, I asked how come that none of the artefacts (bits of bone, papyrus stone etc etc) that Mohammad's scribes used to record his words and actions has survived.
The Quran is only the Quran when it is being recited.
it has been preserved the whole time it has been here. It is preserved because over 9 million people has memorized the Quran today, word for word without a single letter changed
So what is it when its not being recited? Are you trying to say that only the oral tradition is valid? Why therefore have a book at all? You say the Quran (I'll use your spelling) is memorised by over 9 million people, quite a feat I agree, but it can't be that difficult if 9 million have succeeded in doing it. Why not pass it on by word of mouth to the next generation? Or are you saying this is what has happened, and everytime someone recited the Quran they were word and letter perfect? All of them, at all times. And its just a co incidence that the written Quran (can we call it the Quran if its not the Quran when its a book?) is identical with all those recitations?
And if anyone does claim that the Quran from the past is different from the ones used today, then u would have different versions like the Bible. But there are NO DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE QURAN today. Only ONE VERSION, which was the same exact for the past 1,400 years.
I repeat that the oldest known fragments from the Quran, found in the roof of the Great Mosque at Sana'a, differ from the version in use today. I never said there are different versions of the Quran in circulation today, that's clearly not the case. But it has changed at some point in the past, or are you saying the fragments found were not genuine?
Orientilists are people or groups of people which attack religions and try to "bring them down".
Its Orientalists. And they make a study of the Orient, its people its language its history and its religions. They are serious academics doing serious research in an effort to discover more about the origins of (amongst other things) Islam. They don't attack religion, they study its origins and development from a scientific viewpoint. I did not link to any website, and that quote is not from me.
They try to show people things about Islam but at the same time they are giving wrong messages.
Here the dialogue breaks down completely. You say they are wrong because they give a different picture of Islam than the one you are familiar with. Its not possible to have a meaningful conversation with someone taking that attitude and I'm annoyed with myself for taking the time to answer this post.
Qkid
I said this
Quote:No I do not know what orientalists are, nor what they do. Feel free to enlighten me, but rather than just generally refuting the source, please tell me what part of that post you disagree with. Are current day versions of the quran written in the same arabic script as it existed in Muhammod's time? Was there no problem with dots and vowelling? What about the multiple interpretations? No problem here either? That site did not appear to me as though it was being negative toward Islam, just explaining some things.
and you replied with
Quote:Orientilists are people or groups of people which attack religions and try to "bring them down". The website u have used is one of their sites. U also said "That site did not appear to me as though it was being negative toward Islam, just explaining some things." Well thats how orientilists work. They try to show people things about Islam but at the same time they are giving wrong messages. See u thought this site was explaining things about Islam, they do some of that but at the same time feed u with wrong messages.
which is still just a generalized slam against orientalists without any specifics as to what you disagree with. I would really like to know what you think of the questions in bold text above.
This is just a footnote based on earlier discussion.
On Jan. 27th, QKid posted:
"This last quote is about the alleged cruci-fiction of Jesus (pbuh):
"Sura 4:157-158 - That they(Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. ..."
In truth, the belief that Jesus was not crucified, nor died on the cross, is found not only in Islam, but also in certain early Christian belief systems, such as Gnostic Christianity and Docetism. However, these Christian beliefs were later classified as heresies.
n.b. Sorry not to have QKid's quotation in a nifty white box. I don't know how to make those.
AaTruly - if you wish for the nifty white box, click on the "quote" button in the upper R corner of the post you wish to quote from.
dlowan wrote:AaTruly - if you wish for the nifty white box, click on the "quote" button in the upper R corner of the post you wish to quote from.
Thank you, dlowan, for signaling* so helpfully.
*http://www.muridae.com/rabbits/rabbittalk.html
Now - back to the subject . . .
Aa, you can also select text and then click the "quote" button.
Steve,
I dont know what it is when it is not being recited. Quran means something being recited. It does not mean book like bible. No it is not that difficult to memorize it. One reason would be because when we pray, we recite chapters out of the Quran. And there is 5 prayers per day. It was/is passed down by oral tradition genaration after generation, but having it written would make it easier, anyone would agree to that. If you had to study for a vocabulary exam, would you rather memorize the words from a person telling you them or memorize them from looking at them letter by letter?
You claimed that the Quran has changed. How so? Are the Arabic words used different? Or the voweling system?
As for the orientilists thing, I will leave it at whatever you choose.
Wilso wrote:JUst because they "believe" it to be the exact word of god, doesn't mean that it is. It's that same old circular argument. Believing because it tells you to believe.
Can you then prove that the Quran is not the words of God? you know how Christians believe the only written thing from God was the 10 commandments? Well I am claiming that the ENTIRE Quran is verbatim the words of God (i did not say God wrote it Himself). O and let me tell you this is why Muslims dont have blind faith. In previous forms you wanted "proofs", well let me hear your proofs that the Quran is not the words of God. Then we shall continue, inshallah(God willing).
Of course Micah, your counterpart, tells us the the entire bibe is the accurate word of god. And on and on and on it goes!
We should totally get QKid to argue with Micah. There would be sparks, but it would be fun - them using the same arugments against each other.
You prove me wrong!
No, you prove me wrong!
I did!
No you didn't, I did!
...
They'd probably condemn each other to the 42nd reaches of hell.
I can only hope. Wanna PM micah and invite him over to this thread?
i just found it.......i think we should alert the FBI
micah wrote:i just found it.......i think we should alert the FBI
What are you yammering about now?
hobitbob wrote:micah wrote:i just found it.......i think we should alert the FBI
What are you yammering about now?
Isn't it obvious-those who don't share his/her beliefs are deluded, and those who believe something else are criminals.
well....many muslims have declared a holy war on America...are you simply apathetic?
micah wrote:well....many muslims have declared a holy war on America...are you simply apathetic?
And many Christians have called for the overthrow of the US government. McVeigh, springs immediately to mind. I didn't think that even you would stoop this low.
No, I'm not apathetic, I am educated, and not bigoted or intolerant. But I do thank you for once again being the exact stereotype of the ignorant fundamentalist. I am sooooo dissapointed with you.
micah wrote:well....many muslims have declared a holy war on America...are you simply apathetic?
I'm simply not an American.
Qkid
I don't wish to be harsh on you. I respect other people's deeply held religious beliefs. But we have to differentiate between belief and faith and what is known or can be known. The Bible or the Quran are part of what it is to be a person of faith. That faith isnt threatened because objective and sometimes very sophisticated study is able to uncover a better approximation to the truth of historical events. The people I admire are those who are able to take on board the scientific method which guides us inch by inch towards a better understanding of reality while at the same time do not feel it undermines their faith in things beyond reality.
I can't quote to you exactly how fragments of the Quran found in the Great Mosque at Sana'a differ from the Quran in circulation today because the magazine article I read did not give details. But I don't see why it should be mentioned at all if it was not significant.
If you made a reasonable approach to a respected academic establishment near where you live, I'm sure they could point you in the right direction, if you wanted to pursue it.
very rude and biggotish thing to say, Micah. How would you feel if you were talking about Christianity on a forum (in a more civilized manner than you do) and someone said that you should be arrested for your beliefs because of what happened in the crusades? Not everyone is = to their stereotype, and only a specific kind of Islamic fundamentalists (who we helped gain power by giving them weapons to fight Soviets, I might add) atacked the united states. QKid said nothing about blowing up people who disagreed with him, and it was incredibly rude for you to assume so. You can disagree with someone's beliefs and not be a biggot. I think if you want to act like a decent person, you should apologise.
[also, ever heard the expression: you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar?]
QKid wrote:Wilso wrote:JUst because they "believe" it to be the exact word of god, doesn't mean that it is. It's that same old circular argument. Believing because it tells you to believe.
Can you then prove that the Quran is not the words of God? you know how Christians believe the only written thing from God was the 10 commandments? Well I am claiming that the ENTIRE Quran is verbatim the words of God (i did not say God wrote it Himself). O and let me tell you this is why Muslims dont have blind faith. In previous forms you wanted "proofs", well let me hear your proofs that the Quran is not the words of God. Then we shall continue, inshallah(God willing).
The simplist proof is the absolute lack of evidence to demonstrate that it is the word of god. The following is offered not as proof, but just as something to chew on.
Quote:To Muslims the Koran is the very word of God, who spoke through the Angel Gabriel to Muhammad: ''This book is not to be doubted,'' the Koran declares unequivocally at its beginning. Scholars and writers in Islamic countries who have ignored that warning have sometimes found themselves the target of death threats and violence, sending a chill through universities around the world.
Yet despite the fear, a handful of experts have been quietly investigating the origins of the Koran, offering radically new theories about the text's meaning and the rise of Islam.
Christoph Luxenberg, a scholar of ancient Semitic languages in Germany, argues that the Koran has been misread and mistranslated for centuries. His work, based on the earliest copies of the Koran, maintains that parts of Islam's holy book are derived from pre-existing Christian Aramaic texts that were misinterpreted by later Islamic scholars who prepared the editions of the Koran commonly read today.
So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality ''white raisins'' of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.
This was just the intro. Go here for
the entire article.
