mesquite
 
  1  
Sat 6 Mar, 2004 09:49 pm
JL, I have concerns about the rise in fundamentalist Christianity also, and the OT id certainly filled with a lot of barbaric nonsense, but I was just responding to the statement by Hobitbob..
Quote:
Islam is no more or less violent than any other faith (This includes Buddhism).

On that point I disagreed. Did you check the link and watch the video?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sat 6 Mar, 2004 10:52 pm
truth
Not yet.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 12:04 am
I thought not. The video is poor quality and hard to watch, but the site is worth the look and gives some perspective to see that punishments such as stoning to death are still used.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 01:14 am
The stoning is the perfect example of what happens when tribal law is mandatory. Are you aware of violence done to women in India in the name of Hinduism? I haven't seen you make much of an outcry over that. Islam is an "easy target" at the moment, and this is rather sad.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 11:34 am
Why call it tribal law when it is sharia law? This is a thread entitled Islam Miracles. Like it or not fundamentalist Islam is behind violence in many parts of the world now, not 500 years ago.

I know very little about hinduism, therefore I do not comment about it. I am certain that if it had been fanatical hindus that attacked the WTC, they would be getting similar attention to what Islam is getting now.

I have seen many of your posts and respect your knowledge tremendously. It is just that at times you come across as an apologist for Islam.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 12:26 pm
Apologist for Islam? No. Vehemently opposed to the bigoted posts you and others have made? Very much so.
The reason I refer to it as "tribal law" is becasue of the areas where such ocurances hail from: Nigeria, Afghanistan, etc.... the greater majority of the Islamic world does not follow such practices. You remind me very much of people I used to know in Baltimore, who, in order to justify their dislike of all black people, would point out crimes commited by individuals. Comments like yours, ignorant though they may be, are the sort of attitudes that have excused violence towards other religious groups in the past. I find that attitude repugnant.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 02:54 pm
hobitbob,

Why is Islam an "easy target" at the moment ?

Is this purely a knee-jerk reaction to 9/11 or is it something to do with the fact that not one Islamic country is a democracy ? Or perhaps it is the point that the "sanctity of this life" is rejected by some influential Islamicists is the central issue ?

Your comparison with prejudice against "black people" is a little too simplistic for a self-declared academic.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 03:19 pm
truth
So far, this discussion is too fuzzy for me to find a point of entry. I agree, of course, that stoning is horrendous, and that while I consider myself a cultural relativist, there are limits, not theoretically, but practically. I consider my revulsions to reflect MY cultural conditioning, so I do not justify my intercultural judgements in absolutist terms. But I am willing to invade another society in the name of my cultural preferences when its ccultural practices involve stoning, clitorectomies, infanticide (of born persons, not embroyos or fetuses) and the like. (I almost wish a beneficient extra terrestial people would invade us and impose economic justice on our society). Regarding Islam, we must remember that many muslims do not condone terrorism.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 03:23 pm
Islam has become an "easy target" thanks in part to the rise of the Christian Fundamentalist movement in the United States, and the similar anti-immigrant movement in Central Europe. The corresponding Christian fondenss for capital and corporal punishment, and hostility towards social welfare makes me question any counter claims toward Christianity possessing a concept of "sanctity of life." I sincerely doubt democracy has much to do with it. Neither your government or mine has shown much fondness for that form of government, having covertly and overtly prevented its formation in many parts of the world, in favour of authoritatirian regimes amenable to favourable economic conditions.
0 Replies
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 04:21 pm
I know nothing about American Christian fundamentalism, but I can tell you that in the UK it is the "non-integrationist" attitude of "Asian" immigrants which has been a major cause of friction. Also, whereas corporal punishment has been outlawed by European law it is covertly still rife in Islamic "after hours" religious schools... a blind eye no doubt being turned by PC conscious officials.

I am sure you are correct in your assessment of "self interested interference" by the West in the government of other countries, but given the seeming inability of certain countries/groups to establish viable democracies I think this interference could be more a matter of expediency than malicious intent. (Better the Devil you know...).
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 04:58 pm
fresco wrote:
I know nothing about American Christian fundamentalism, but I can tell you that in the UK it is the "non-integrationist" attitude of "Asian" immigrants which has been a major cause of friction. Also, whereas corporal punishment has been outlawed by European law it is covertly still rife in Islamic "after hours" religious schools... a blind eye no doubt being turned by PC conscious officials.

I am sure you are correct in your assessment of "self interested interference" by the West in the government of other countries, but given the seeming inability of certain countries/groups to establish viable democracies I think this interference could be more a matter of expediency than malicious intent. (Better the Devil you know...).

Well, I see you are conveniently ignoring the largest Islamic country in the world, Indonesia, which is a democracy, as is Turkey.

As for corporal punbishment in schools, Christian Fundamentalists in the US have been pushing hard for this, and actively practice it in the deep south, where it is illegal. In addition, I wonder if this isn't more of a cultural practice, than a religious one, since Japan seems to be the biggest purveyor of this sort of thing. I don't know that Japan is a Muslim country, but I could be wrong. Wink
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 05:00 pm
fresco wrote:
I know nothing about American Christian fundamentalism, but I can tell you that in the UK it is the "non-integrationist" attitude of "Asian" immigrants which has been a major cause of friction.

I'm sure predjudice against them by the citizens of their host countries has nothing to do with it. Rolling Eyes
Read Terry Pratchett's Jingo. He effectively satirizes the whole thing.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 05:55 pm
So I suppose this is all the fault of those "non-integrationalist" Muslims, eh? Twisted Evil
Mosque Bombing in Southern France
Quote:
French mosque fires draw protest
Seynod's prayer room was devastated by fire
About 250 people have held a protest rally in the south-eastern French town of Annecy after two local mosques were damaged in suspected arson attacks.

One fire ravaged a mosque in the Alpine town itself while the other burned a prayer room in nearby Seynod.

French President Jacques Chirac condemned the "odious acts".

In Paris, the issue of the Islamic veil in schools resurfaced as thousands of feminists marched in support of the new state ban on religious symbols.

Kamel Kabtane of the French Council of the Muslim Faith said in Annecy that the suspected cases of arson were "not an act of vandalism... [but] an attack" and complained that no senior French politician had joined the protest.

The Paris march comes ahead of Women's Day on Monday

"We are in a pre-electoral period and many politicians did not dare come, fearing perhaps a backlash from voters," Mr Kabtane said, presumably referring to regional polls later in March.

The organisation's president, Dalil Boubakeur, warned the arson could "only worsen the sensitive religious climate" in France.

The Representative Council of Jewish Institutions of France also "strongly condemned" the attacks, expressing solidarity with the Muslim community.

No group has said it started the fires, and police have made no comment about the investigation. No-one was injured in either blaze.

Women's rights

Many of France's estimated five million Muslims are outraged at a new law which will ban religious symbols such as the headscarf from schools from the start of the new school year in September, in line with France's secularist tradition.

But in the French capital, about 7,000 feminists marched on Saturday in support of greater rights for women and in support of the ban on symbols.

At the same time a group of about 30 women in Islamic veils demonstrated against the law during the march which was organised by women's groups, trade unions and leftist political parties.

Prominent at the march were members of Ni Putes Ni Soumises (Neither Whores nor Slaves), a group which campaigns for the rights of women of North African origin in France which strongly opposes the headscarf.

"It's years since I demonstrated but today I am here to support those Muslim women who do not have the same rights as us," one marcher, Jeanne Chevalier, told the AFP news agency.

Please feel free to enlighten the rest of us how they "brought it on themselves."
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 07:37 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Apologist for Islam? No. Vehemently opposed to the bigoted posts you and others have made? Very much so.
The reason I refer to it as "tribal law" is becasue of the areas where such ocurances hail from: Nigeria, Afghanistan, etc.... the greater majority of the Islamic world does not follow such practices.

Sorry but I decline to take that dance with you. Nigeria and Afghanistan and Iran are under governments that have adopted Islamic law (sharia) as the basis for their government. It is not just tribal law as exists in parts of Pakistan, and even there the laws are based on islamic law.
Quote:
You remind me very much of people I used to know in Baltimore, who, in order to justify their dislike of all black people, would point out crimes commited by individuals. Comments like yours, ignorant though they may be, are the sort of attitudes that have excused violence towards other religious groups in the past. I find that attitude repugnant.

I don't know where you get off comparing me to racists in Baltimore, but I do resent it. I do understand that you have had trouble with predjudice in the and I sympathize with you for that. In My posts I have provided links to two websites, one pro islamic and one con (which which happens to be from recovering muslims). My comments have all been directed towards the religion itself which I believe has some very real problems. One being the implied threat to muslims who question the teachings. Another being notion that jihad is the fast track to paradise. Another is the belief that the koran is the absolute unquestionable word of allah which promotes a more fundamentalist practice of the religion. I feel just as strongly about the fundamentalist christian movement and was againt the Iraq war from the time Bush started beating his drums.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 07:41 pm
"Recovering Muslims?" And you have the gall to imply you are not bigoted? Shocked
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 08:00 pm
hobitbob wrote:
"Recovering Muslims?" And you have the gall to imply you are not bigoted? Shocked

Absolutely recovering muslims. Have you been to the site? There are also recovering christians and I can point you to some of their sites. I am not familiar enough with other religions to comment on them. In general terms though religion can have traumatic effects that the term recovering does apply to.

Bigot implies intolerance and to be honest I suppose I do have some of that. Are you implying that you don't? Shocked
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 08:49 pm
I've seen the site. It is hate speech, plain and simple. "Mohammed the pedophile," indeed. If I recall correctly it is run by a fundamentalist Christian group. This tends to discredit it immensely. Your posting of a link to such a site doesn't say much for your ability to make informed choices about source material either. I admit to intolerance toward those who hate and defame others becasue of their races, beliefs, or gender orientation. I am quite intolerant of the views presented on that site, and by extension the views you present here.
I consider that website to be not dissimilar to those that attempt to prove the bible, Q'uran, etc.. as litereally "true." Such sites are geared toward those with weak minds, and little education. Don't insult the intelligence of those on this board by attempting to imply that they hold any amount of veracity.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 09:57 pm
Hobitbob, I Don't know why you think the apostates site is run by a fundamentalists christian group. Here is a quote from the second paragraph of the home page.
Quote:
What we believe:

Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others they way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule.

Does not sound like any fundamentalist christian site to me. Here are their goals.
Quote:
What is our goal?

We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.

Do you disagree with those goals? As for the pedophile article, some might think that marrying a six year old and consummating it when she was 9 could be characterized as such. Did you read the article or just blow it off because of the title. IMO the article was not about hate, it was about a better future.

I have seen some anti-islam sites run by fundy christians. To me that is like the pot calling the kettle black.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 10:09 pm
hobitbob wrote:

I consider that website to be not dissimilar to those that attempt to prove the bible, Q'uran, etc.. as litereally "true." Such sites are geared toward those with weak minds, and little education. Don't insult the intelligence of those on this board by attempting to imply that they hold any amount of veracity.

Having a bad hair day? Shocked
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Sun 7 Mar, 2004 10:52 pm
mesquite wrote:
Hobitbob, I Don't know why you think the apostates site is run by a fundamentalists christian group. Here is a quote from the second paragraph of the home page.
Quote:
What we believe:

Some of us have embraced other religions but most of us have simply left Islam without believing in any other religion. We believe in humanity. We believe that humans do not need to follow a religion to be good. All we need to follow is the Golden Rule. All we have to do is to treat others they way we expect to be treated. This is the essence of all the goodness. All good religious teachings stem from this eternal principle. This is the ultimate guidance humanity need. This is the Golden Rule.

Does not sound like any fundamentalist christian site to me. Here are their goals.
Quote:
What is our goal?

We are apostates of Islam. We denounce Islam as a false doctrine of hate and terror. However we are not against Muslims who are our own kin and relatives. We do not advocate hate and violence. Muslims are the main victims of Islam. Our goal is to educate them and let them see the truth. We are against Islam and not the Muslims. We strive to bring the Muslims into the fold of humanity. Eradicate Islam so our people can be liberated, so they can prosper and break away from the pillory of Islam. We would like to see Islamic countries dedicate more time to science and less time to Quran and Sharia. We would like to see them prosper and contribute to human civilization. We would like to see the draconian laws of Islam eliminated and people are treated humanely. We strive for freedom of beliefs, for equality of gender and for oneness of mankind.

Do you disagree with those goals?


The bit you highlighted pretty much demonstrates that the site is beneath contempt. That you seem to agree with it says a great deal. How does this differ from the opnions of groups who wish to "eradicate" other groups?

Quote:
As for the pedophile article, some might think that marrying a six year old and consummating it when she was 9 could be characterized as such. Did you read the article or just blow it off because of the title.

Child marriage was not that uncommon among the upper classes in late antiquity. This is a typical example of condemning a group for practices that are completely acceptable during a given period in history. It demonstrates the narrowminded-ness and poor education of its author.


Quote:
IMO the article was not about hate, it was about a better future.

I don't doubt that that is your opinion. In my opinion, those who hold opinions similar to those expressed by the website are sad excuses for human beings. have a nice evening.
0 Replies
 
 

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