Wilso:
Yea i do have a direct line. You do too. So does everyone. Can u guess what it is? Do u really think i get my stuff from my head? It is the QUR'AN bro. U should try reading it sometimes. It won't bite.
Frank:
U said "According to the Koran....
...the god of the Bible IS the god of the Koran. "
Well did u also happen to read in the Qur'an where it says that the original bible the Muslims believe in has been changed so many times by humans? Which is why the Qur'an had to be revealed and this is the last and final revelation and it will be preserved. So now u are gonna ask how is it preserved right Frank? Well the Arabic that it came in is the same exact every where u go in the world for the past 1,400 years. Not even 1 letter has been changed. And in the Qur'an, Allah has said that He would preserve the Qur'an. Wouldn't you call this preservation? Also over 9 million people have memorized the Qur'an in Arabic word for word. Muslims believe in the Bible that our prophet Jesus (pbuh) brought with him. But it is lost and gone and noone can say they have it. Thats the Bible Muslims believe in. The Bible which Jesus (pbuh) brought.
It is good that you sometimes use Qur'an instead of Koran. But when you say it out loud, it is pronounced with the Qu instead of K. Try it. U can see some difference.
QKid wrote:Frank:
U said "According to the Koran....
...the god of the Bible IS the god of the Koran. "
Yes I did.
Quote:Well did u also happen to read in the Qur'an where it says that the original bible the Muslims believe in has been changed so many times by humans?
Nope. Why don't you give us a reference so we can read it outselves.
And then I will comment on what you derive from that passage.
I notice that Hamid makes one (over wide and hence irritating) post makes some gratuitously offensive remarks and then disappears. He clearly does not want to debate.
Well if you're still around somewhere Hamid, I don't give a rat's ass whether you think Islam is superior to Christianity. Its merely your opinion. And judging by the quality of your sole posting on A2K, your opinion counts for very little.
But as we seem to be in the game of opinion swapping let me let loose a few of mine about Islam. [Please note I am not against Muslims. I feel sorry for them. I wish they could be liberated from the repressive regimes most of them live under, and liberated too from their backward looking and in some places positively medieval religion which has retarded their development for so long]
I think people who kill in the name of Allah or God are murderers.
I think a religion which makes animal sacrifice is barbaric.
I think the mutilation of children's genitalia is grossly offensive.
I think a religion that condones beheadings, limb amputations, wife beating, discrimination against women and stoning people has no place in the 21st century.
Your proselytising post has inspired me to redouble my efforts in exposing the harm that religions such as Islam have inflicted on mankind. Take your nose out of the Koran. Look at the world without the mind numbing distortions and distractions of religious indoctrination. Be free to think and act for yourself. Use your brain, as God intended.
Sorry i took so long Frank. College just started and i have been in a frenzy this past week.
We have to remember that the Quran was revealed about 600 years after the Bible came out. Also that it is God(Allah) speaking verbatim. The Quran answers many of the questions we have today about the Bible. Such as that of God, Jesus, his cruci-fiction, the trinity and others.
This first quotation is about the people who wrote with their own hands and changed the Bible but still say it is the word of God:
Sura 2:79 - Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
This next quote is about Jesus (pbuh) and the matter of Trinity:
Sura 4:171 - O People of the Book(Bible)! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
This last quote is about the alleged cruci-fiction of Jesus (pbuh):
Sura 4:157-158 - That they(Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
In here is is saying that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified. He was not even put on the cross. Muslims believe that it was someone else who looked like him that was actually put on the cross.
QKid
In your last post, we have the same circular reasoning that Christians use.
Christian reasoning:
We know that the Bible contains the word of God.
How do you know that?
Because the Bible tells us so.
Now you are saying that Mohammud tells us that Jesus was not crucified.
But how do you know that to be the truth?
Under any circumstances -- there seems to be little doubt that the god of the Koran is the same god as the god of the Bible.
Hey QKid
I forgot my manners.
Good luck with school.
Let school and your studies take precedence over this nonsense all the time.
This is for play; school is for your future.
Qkid
Ask your history teacher if the earliest versions of the Koran differed from the Koran used today.
Ask about the direction of the prayer room in the ancient mosques at S'ana.
Ask how it is that Islam builds on many aspects of ancient Jewish tradition.
I'm not trying to destroy your faith. In many respects Islam is a much more coherent and intelligent interpretation of the world than Christianity. All I'm doing is trying to get you to use your brain as God intended and think for yourself. What makes sense and what doesn't.
Just for your information, there are significant differences between the earliest Koran found and that used now. And the earliest prayer rooms faced north to Jerusalem, not Mecca.
Steve and Frank:
Steve, if that is your true intention, for me to use my brain, then I have no problem with that. I am "kool" with it.
First of all, let me tell you there is NO different versions of the Quran. Only translations. The Quran was revealed in the Arabic language. There is no versions because if you go anywhere on this earth, you would see the same exact Arabic Quran everywhere. Not 1 word has been changed or even 1 Arabic alphabet letter has been changed. It is the same everywhere you go. If there were different versions, then you would see them today. But it is the same exact as when it was first revealed 1,400 years ago. There is a difference between version and translation. There are many translations of the Quran. This is so because English is a pretty new language and some of the Arabic words of the Quran do not have words which mean the exact same in English. So I repeat, there are NO VERSIONS of the Quran, only one.
About the similarities between Jewish, Christian, and Islamic traditions:
We Muslims believe that Moses pbuh(peace be unto him) was sent the Taurat (Torah) and that is what he preached. But it became distorted by humans when it came to writing it down. So God sent to one of our mightiest prophets Iesa (Jesus) pbuh the teachings of the Injil(what Jesus pbuh preached). But as you can see from my prior post, it became corrupted and changed. Basically, humans intervened and changed the message from ONE GOD to three in one. So far you have 2 revelations which came down but they were tampered with. So God sends his final revelation to prophet Muhammed pbuh which was the Quran. The Quran is the exact words of God (Alllah) VERBATIM (the Arabic ofcourse). So you see why we have similar traditions. It is the same message being sent to each prophet. The message of the ONE and ONLY ONE GOD. But since the previous messages were changed, the final message from the Quran came. There will be no more revelations or prophets after the Quran. All of this is stated in the Quran.
As for the direction of praying:
I do know that before the revelation of the Quran, the people used to pray in some other direction. But when the Quran was revealed, it said to pray towards the Kabba located in Makkah(Mecca), Saudi Arabia.
Frank:
I know that school is very important for my life. I am only a freshmen and I have a long way to go before achieving my degree. Right now I am 18 and my life has just started. But religion is also very important to me also. You don't have to move to the desert to practice Islam or learn about it. But teaching people about Islam is an order by Allah in the Quran, so I do it. I also enjoy doing it.
"Now you are saying that Mohammud tells us that Jesus was not crucified.
But how do you know that to be the truth?"
Well if Muslims were to believe that Jesus Christ pbuh was crucified and resurrected, then we also have to believe that he did this to take away our sins. And we are incapable of sinning as long as we believe in the resurrection and in Jesus pbuh as the Christians do. But Muslims do not believe in the concept of Original Sin, that it is passed on to everyone and every individual is born with sin. And the only salvation is if we believe that Jesus pbuh died for our sins. So we don't believe that Jesus Christ pbuh was crucified because it would make Jesus pbuh divine. Also because Allah bluntly says it in the Quran as you have previously read.
The Quran is not the words of prophet Muhammed pbuh. It cannot be because he was ILLETERATE. He could not read or write. Secondly, he never claimed to have written it. He always said that it was not his own words but it was his Lord's words. The Quran was first reaveled to Muhammed pbuh in the year 610 AD. It took a span of 23 years for the entire Quran to be reavealed. Every time prophet Muhammed pbuh received a revelation, he would memorize it and tell it to scribes who wrote it down. These scribes were with Muhammed pbuh almost all the time. This is all historical. You can look it up anywhere.
Qkid
I quote from the New Statesman magazine 10/12/01
Quote:Tucked away in the jorunals and occasional papers of the world of Islamic studies is work by a group of academics who have spent the past three decades plotting a quiet revolution in the study of the origins of the religion, the Koran and the life of the Prophet Mohammad. The conclusions of the so-called "new historians" of Islam are devastating: that we know almost nothing about the life of the Muslim prophet Mohammed; that the rapid rise of the religion can be attributed, at least in part, to the attraction of Islam's message of conquest and jihad for the tribes of the Arabian peninsula; that the Koran as we know it today was compliled, or perhaps even written, long after Mohammad's supposed deathe in 632AD. Most crontroversially of all, the researchers say that there existed an anti-Christian alliance between Arabs and Jews in the earliest days of Islam, and that the religion may be best understood as a heretical branch of rabbinical Judaism.
QKid wrote:Steve and Frank:
Steve, if that is your true intention, for me to use my brain, then I have no problem with that. I am "kool" with it.
First of all, let me tell you there is NO different versions of the Quran. Only translations. The Quran was revealed in the Arabic language. There is no versions because if you go anywhere on this earth, you would see the same exact Arabic Quran everywhere. Not 1 word has been changed or even 1 Arabic alphabet letter has been changed. It is the same everywhere you go. If there were different versions, then you would see them today. But it is the same exact as when it was first revealed 1,400 years ago. There is a difference between version and translation. There are many translations of the Quran. This is so because English is a pretty new language and some of the Arabic words of the Quran do not have words which mean the exact same in English. So I repeat, there are NO VERSIONS of the Quran, only one.
Qkid
Maybe there is one and only one version now, but it hasn't always been that way. Or is version just the wrong word and interpretations would be more correct. It seems to me that with dual use words, no dots to differentiate letters, and no vowels in the earliest written text, a whole bunch of vagueness enters the picture.
Quote:The Koran as a book is the result of:
1. Revelations given to Muhammad in the period 610- 632 (Muhammad's death).
2. Writing down of these revelations by people around Muhammad in a period probably starting some years after 610, and ending a couple of years after 632.
3. Compilation of these writings stretching from mid-630s and perhaps until mid -650s.
4. Vowelling and dotting of the text. Ancient Arabic was written without dots, leaving some letters look identical. And in many cases the lack of vowels would make two different words look identical.
It was therefore up to the memories of the learned to remember what was the correct meaning of every word. But as these learned people died, the early Muslim community found it important to save the exact meaning once and for all, before it was too late.
Essential to the reading of the Koran are the interpretations of the content. There are still some scholars working on interpreting the text, but this was a more common act during the first centuries of Islam.
As the Koran has a structure and a language, as well as allusions, which often are difficult for the normal Muslim to understand, a whole science were built around the comprehension of the Koran. The early Muslims studied history, language and nature science in an effort of understanding the Koran better. The product is surprisingly well accepted by the whole Muslim society, and no Muslim child or adult of today, studying the Koran, does this without help from the interpretations built on the early sciences of the Koran.
The early efforts of Koranic science have given room for different approaches to the book and its content, but apart from the interpretations of the , all interpretations are looked upon as parallel, meaning that one of them cannot be put ahead of the other.
There are today 7 ways of reading the Koran, each of these have two variances, leaving the Muslims with 14 ways of reading the Koran. But in modern Koranic science this applies only to Muslim scholars, the ordinary Muslim reads the Koran without entering this level of complexity.
Source
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:All of which merely confirms my belief that there are two types of religious people, the deluded and the dangerously deluded.
I completely agree with that statement Steve and I also believe that Islam has a much higher number that fall into the
dangerously deluded category.
The post that started this thread, as ridiculous as it is, is just a minor glimpse at the nonsense being spouted. For instance, check out this website
Miracles of Islam to get a feel of what I am saying. While there, be sure to check out the section "Signs of Allah's Fury & Punishments". In that section you will find
this page, which if you scroll to be bottom, you will find a picture of the WTC 9/11 event accompanied with a quote from the Quran.
For even more nonsense, check out the guestbook for that site. There is even one entry that is from an atheist that is considering converting to Islam after viewing the site. Double barf.
If Mohammad was surrounded at all times by 45 scribes who wrote down everything that he said and did on bone, pieces of rock, parchment and papyrus, howcome nothing has survived?
How is it that the first biography of the Prophet comes from the end of the eighth century, at least 150 years after the supposed founding of the religion?
I'm sure you know about the discovery during the restoration of the Great Mosque at Sana'a in Yemen. Workmen found fragments of Korans in the roof which are amongst the earliest known. German scholars who studied the manuscripts discovered some of the Koranic writing diverges from the authorised version. And some of the writing appears to have been inscribed over earlier "rubbed out" versions of the text.
This supports the view of the University of London School of Oriental and African Studies that the Koran as we know it today does not date from the time of Mohammad.
According to a professor of Islamic history at University of Victoria in Canada,"The Sana'a manuscripts are part of the process of filling in the holes in our knowledge of what might have happened".
Mohammad is supposed to have changed the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Mecca in the earliest years of Islam. But archaeological evidence from mosques built in the eighth century (after the death of Mohammad) shows many of the Muslim prayer niches point north and not towards Mecca.
Quote:On his journey, the Prophet smelled a very nice odor. He asked Jibril about this pleasant scent and Jibril informed him this good smell was coming from the grave of the woman whose duty used to be to comb Pharaoh's daughter's hair. This woman was a good, pious believer. One day, as she was combing Pharaoh's daughter's hair, the comb fell from her hand. At this she said, ""Bismillah. "Pharaoh's daughter asked her, "Do you have a god other than my father?" The woman said, "Yes. My Lord and the Lord of your father is Allah." Pharaoh's daughter told her father what had happened. Pharaoh demanded this woman blaspheme and leave Islam, but she refused. At that, Pharaoh threatened to kill her children. He brought a great pot of water and built a great fire under it. When the water boiled, Pharaoh brought her children and started to drop them into that pot one after the other. Throughout all this, the woman remained steadfast to Islam, even when Pharaoh reached her youngest child--a little boy still breast feeding--but she felt pity for him. At that, Allah enabled this child to speak. He said to his mother, "O Mother, be patient. The torture of the Hereafter is far more severe than the torture of this life, and do not be reluctant, because you are right." At this the woman requested Pharaoh collect her bones and the bones of her children and bury them in the same grave. Pharaoh promised her that--then dropped her into that boiling water. She died as a martyr. The good odor the Prophet smelled coming from her grave is an indication of her high status.
Well I think thats all clear
Steve:
The article from New Statesman is a nice folktale. It does not show anything or prove anything. I really dont know what was your point on putting that up. Its nice to know opinions of others but thats all it is. I really dont know if I should even try to reply to that because it does not even pose a question.
You also said "how come nothing has survived?" Well u know what, it wouldnt matter if it survived or not. WHy? Because the Quran is only the Quran when it is being recited (remember, the Arabic). And like I said before, all of then Quran's are the same exact verbatim and it has been preserved for 1,400 without 1 letter being changed.
Mesquite:
Do you know what orientilists are? What they do? Well since your source was from a orientilist website, then ofcource they are gonna make up lies about Islam and the Quran. Duh.
Yes I too agree that the post which started this is a bunch of trash. It does not mean anything. Also, there are many nonsense websites out there also. Like the one you posted up with that 9/11 thing. Did you really think that quote was from the Quran and was talking about the Twin Towers? The site didnt even give reference to that verse.
QKid wrote:
You also said "how come nothing has survived?" Well u know what, it wouldnt matter if it survived or not. WHy? Because the Quran is only the Quran when it is being recited (remember, the Arabic). And like I said before, all of then Quran's are the same exact verbatim and it has been preserved for 1,400 without 1 letter being changed.
This paragraph makes no sense to me. You say that it makes no difference if it survived,or not, yet you state flat out that it has been preserved for 1400 years without 1 letter being changed. What objective evidence do you have that leads you to this conclusion?
Quote:
Mesquite:
Do you know what orientilists are? What they do? Well since your source was from a orientilist website, then ofcource they are gonna make up lies about Islam and the Quran. Duh.
No I do not know what orientalists are, nor what they do. Feel free to enlighten me, but rather than just generally refuting the source, please tell me what part of that post you disagree with. Are current day versions of the quran written in the same arabic script as it existed in Muhammod's time? Was there no problem with dots and vowelling? What about the multiple interpretations? No problem here either? That site did not appear to me as though it was being negative toward Islam, just explaining some things. I have gotten a much more negative view of Islam just by visiting Islamic sites.
Quote:
Yes I too agree that the post which started this is a bunch of trash. It does not mean anything. Also, there are many nonsense websites out there also. Like the one you posted up with that 9/11 thing. Did you really think that quote was from the Quran and was talking about the Twin Towers? The site didnt even give reference to that verse.
I was not the one professing that quote as pertaining to the twin towers, but to be honest with you it had more relevance than the one you posted claiming to be a description of embriology in another thread.
Qkid is simply wrong when he says the Koran has not changed. Or is he saying the earliest copies found are forgeries?
He makes no comment on the inconsistancies regarding the direction of prayer.
He has not aswered my question as to why no artefacts from Mohammad's sribes have survived.
He is clearly not interested in discussing the point made by London University that Islam is a heretical offshoot of Judaism.
But of course why debate when all the answers are in one perfect book, given to Mohammad?
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
But of course why debate when all the answers are in one perfect book, given to Mohammad?
Like you said earlier. The deluded, and the dangerously deluded.
Well thats disposed of Islam. Now what, Judaism, Shinto or Christianity?
Steve asked how come none of the original Quran's has survived. I meant that even if the first Quran(the text) survived today, it would mean nothing. The Quran is only the Quran when it is being recited. To do this, one would have to memorize the entire thing. I also claimed that it has been preserved the whole time it has been here. It is preserved because over 9 million people has memorized the Quran today, word for word without a single letter changed. If u go anywhere in the world, and people are reciting the Quran(the Arabic, not english), it will be the same exact recitation throughout. This is how it is preserved. The Arabic of the Quran which Muslims believe to be the exact words of God is the same exact in every single Quran in the world today. So i repeat, when I(or any Muslim) say that the Quran has been preserved, they are talking about the Arabic Text. Not 1 letter of it has changed. And if anyone does claim that the Quran from the past is different from the ones used today, then u would have different versions like the Bible. But there are NO DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF THE QURAN today. Only ONE VERSION, which was the same exact for the past 1,400 years.
Orientilists are people or groups of people which attack religions and try to "bring them down". The website u have used is one of their sites. U also said "That site did not appear to me as though it was being negative toward Islam, just explaining some things." Well thats how orientilists work. They try to show people things about Islam but at the same time they are giving wrong messages. See u thought this site was explaining things about Islam, they do some of that but at the same time feed u with wrong messages.
JUst because they "believe" it to be the exact word of god, doesn't mean that it is. It's that same old circular argument. Believing because it tells you to believe.
