Islam miracles.

Hi guys ...been away hiding...they're after me again

Fresco thanks for encouragement Go On Go On Go ON

QKid, What was the question again?

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QKid wrote:

Ok guys,

I have not even put my proof for the fact that the Quran is the Word of God (entirely). .

Well, I think you should, immediately - that is an outrageous claim. Please - DO "prove" it. Oh - I am not a "guy".

QKid wrote:

First of all I want to begin by saying that we Muslims believe in the Bible and Torah. But its not the same ones that we have today. Our view on the Bible is what Jesus pbuh preached, but we dont have that today and our view of the Torah is what Moses pbuh preached. But we dont have these exact books today anyway. We also believe that the previous 2 revelations (Bible and Torah) are corrupted, that they were changed by man. This is why the Quran had to be revealed. It is the final revelation and it will not be changed or corrupted by man. .

Once again - please prove that other texts are "corrupted by 'man'" - and not yours! What does "pbuh" mean, by the way?

QKid wrote:

Now getting to the proof:
But to do this I have to ask you guys a series of questions, BUT i only want replies from mesquite and steve because otherwise we cannot have proper discussion and we will move away from the topic as always. I ask everyone else to be patient. Please I just want steve and mesquite to answer the questions I will be asking..

Huh? Why just Steve and mesquite?

QKid wrote:

Qestion 1:
Lets say that you agreed that Muhammed pbuh is a prophet. That he is receiving revelation from God, that you agreed to this, just presume that you did. Now this is a very huge claim for anyone to make. To be able to say that you can communicate with the Creator of the universe. If someone were to claim that they were a prophet, how would you react? (Remember you do believe that there is a God also) You see, prophet Muhammed pbuh is claiming that he is a prophet. So my question is, How can you verify if one who is claiming to be a prophet is really a prophet? What is the criteria for a prophet? ..

Please! You have not proven there is a god - why should I believe there is a prophet without believing there is a god? First things first, please.

What are the criteria for a prophet? Well - as I just said - a god isn't a bad start. Please prove that. When you have done that, I shall start concerning myself with the front of house folk.

QKid wrote:

Please just answer the question. Dont go off topic. Just answer the question directly. If we can do it in this manner, maybe we can come to a conclusion. So Steve and Mesquite are the only ones i should be hearing from.

Ahem.

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Qkid, what exactly do you want to hear from me and Mesquite?

Do you want me to say ok you win its all just as you said it was. OK I've said it. And I always lie. Even when I said I always lie. Confused? You should try following some of your posts.

I just get tired of all this "my god is better than your god", especially as this makes several assumptions for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

Mohammed was illiterate. He was followed around at all times by a bunch of scribes who wrote down everything he said and did, expecially when he was on the hot line to Allah. They scribbled it all on bits of bone, pottery and paper, anything that came to hand. Except of course they didn't. If they had, some of these fragments would have survived.

Did they collect the bits together and make a book out of it? Do you think it likely they would have burned or destroyed the original fragments? Doesn't Islam prescribe the usual penalty for that sort of behaviour, i.e. death?

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Pretend I didn't write this post.

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I can't believe this thread is still going, what with hamid dumping a single post and never returning. Well, keep it up, it's interesting reading.

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That was the Egyptians wot was chasing them when the Red Sea did its stuff and all.

The Philistines was Goliath and all.

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Is there ever to be a second coming of hAMID?

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Qkid,
I asked dlowan to take my place in your proof quest. She has graciously accepted.

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Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

Is there ever to be a second coming of hAMID?

If Jesus can do it anybody can.

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IronLionZion wrote:

If Jesus can do it anybody can.

I didn't think he'd done it yet. But considering what happened to the alleged son of god the first time round, maybe he's already here and stuck in an asylum somewhere.

I remember a passage from the Dire Straights song Industrial Disease. "two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong"

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dlowan,
I will attempt to prove what I claim but everyone must be patient. Like I said earlier, I will ask a series of questions and we have to move point by point. It is good to see that not only males dominate a2k. I am not going to atempt to prove that the other texts were corrupted by man. So lets not even get into that stuff. Pbuh means peace be upon him. Muslims have to say that after mentioning the names of any of our prophets, its a sign of respect. I wanted just Steve and Mesquite to answer because we have been going at it for a while on this thread and nothing was accomplished. And with more people asking questions, I cant handle all at the same time. I am the only one supporting my side so its kinda difficult. So I ask everyone to be patient once again. About the part that I have not proven there is a God, that is too hard to do through a thread or any other way except through physically talking to someone. But if u read my post correctly, thats why I said that just suppose there is a God in the first place or else we cannot move on.

Mesquite,
Fine then I will be expecting participations from dlowan and STeve.

Steve,
I never said "my god is better than yours", or any of that sort. I never mentioned anything like that. But going back to my questions, you have not replied to anyone of them. they are the ones in bold. let me repeat.

Qestion 1:
Lets say that you agreed that Muhammed pbuh is a prophet. That he is receiving revelation from God, that you agreed to this, just presume that you did. Now this is a very huge claim for anyone to make. To be able to say that you can communicate with the Creator of the universe. If someone were to claim that they were a prophet, how would you react? (Remember just suppose you do believe that there is a God also) You see, prophet Muhammed pbuh is claiming that he is a prophet. So my question is, How can you verify if one who is claiming to be a prophet is really a prophet? What is the criteria for someone claiming to be a prophet?

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I don't agree that he was the prophet, or that even a god exists for him to be the prophet of.

It will surely be the "lake of fire" for me I guess. Very Happy

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IronLionZion wrote:

Thunder Cloud wrote:
A lot of simplistic "good guys" vs the "bad guys" crap here regarding the faiths of others. It wasn't too long ago that the faith of the American Indian was not recognized as being a part of Religion and did not fall under any freedom of Religion. Even before that the spiritual Hierarchy of the Apache was all but wiped out...in the name of what good faith was that? Even today, there is a "faith-bias" against them.

Well, let's see what the big superiority trip is about. Some Israelis run from some heavily armored Philistines and are stopped by the Red Sea. So they have the choice of definitely being butchered or possibly drowning. Amazingly they make it to the other side and it seems a miracle that they survived, that the sea seemed to part somehow. This is what is called faith. Faith is about having confidence in survival and eventual Salvation from this world. It is reality...not some Hollywood movie.

So why demand perfection in the faith of others?

It is not so much good guys vs bad guys as it is non-rational vs those of us with functioning nervous systems.

Faith is, by definition, a non-rational way of thinking. You are free to be a fideist; nobody is going to stop you. Just as I am free to believe that a magical circus clown named Fred farted the universe into existence. We are both well withen our rights. We are also both stupid, utter wastes of protien.

Please, when you are engaging in conversations here, make sure to preface your statements by acknowledging the non-rational nature of your beliefs. That way people can avoid taking you seriously. There is no point in discussing this further because we have no common ground to stand on. Faith is immune to logic by its very definition. You cannot reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

Faith is pernicious. It was faith, if you recall - a faith no different from yours - that drove 19 men to crach planes into skyscrapers on 9/11.

So I say to you Hail Fred; the mercifull, the munificent. He whose farts do not stink but breath life, He whose anus is the breech of all existence, He whose sheer Fredness is unattainable. Hail Fred.

Or burn in hell forever for refusing to acknowledge His sheer awesomeness.

So far, my favourite of your posts. Laughing

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Ok QKid thanks for repeating the question.

Quote:

How can you verify if one who is claiming to be a prophet is really a prophet? What is the criteria for someone claiming to be a prophet?

Ans. (Part 1)

If someone claims to be a prophet, then they better demonstrate it by doing some serious prophesying. Its not good enough just to say, "this is the word of God and therefore you must do this and not do that", prophets these days should do something useful that is they've got to get it right. There is nothing worse imo than a false prophet, or even a prophet who gets it right most of the time, but just when you really need a good call, gets it spectacularly wrong. Like Paul Wolfowitz.

So I would devise a prophetorial competence test for any aspiring prophet.

First he or she must pass a medical as being fit to prophesy, i.e no delusional tendencies, mental illness or other condition that might distort or compromise his prophetic ability. Second for his doctorate, he must produce some original work in prophesying, and demonstrate a thorough understanding of the prophetical profession, indicating how it has changed, its current trends, and how it may change in future. Third my aspirant prophet must consistently give me the winning lottery numbers, not just once but at any time when called upon.

part 2

The problem that I have with believers is not that they make the assumption that God exists (ok its a matter of faith, not a testable hypothesis) but that they go on to make all sorts of other assumptions about the NATURE of God. Just a few examples

God is male (or female)
God created man in his own image
God takes an interest in human affairs
God likes certain things and dislikes others
God has expectations of us.

Suppose God was content, having made the Universe, to let it unwind like a large clock, and didn't care anything more about it apart from laughing at our stupidity?

I might, for the purposes of the argument accept the premise that God exists. But I do not accept that characteristics of God or revelations about God are anything other than man's interpretation of what God might be like.

Mohammed said God spoke to him. Don't we all have moments like that? Don't we all get a little wobbly-kneed when we try to look at the stars and contemplate the Universe, or gaze in the eyes of a baby?

I can't verify that someone who claims to be a prophet really is a prophet. Validating prophets isn't my business. And I don't for one moment think that someone who claims to be a prophet is any more or any less of a prophet than I am.

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Oh my!

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dlowan,
I dont need any remarks. I thought u would take over mesquite's part. So I guess u dont have any opinions on this thread. Then it will only be me and Steve. So I ask for u to be patient also. thank you.

Steve,
Yes, this is what I wanted all this time. Yes I agree when you say that its not enough to claim someone is a prophet. And yes there are so many false prophets out there. People claiming to be prophets when they are just liars.

As for having to take a medical, I dont think that is really necessary but I see where u are coming from. Thats not a big issue.

Your second criteria, I am not sure what u mean by his doctorate but for them to "demonstrate a thorough understanding of the prophetical profession, indicating how it has changed, its current trends, and how it may change in future", you are telling me this is it? For someone who is making this HUGE claim that they have communication with the divine, this is a pretty easy criteria for many to fulfill. We have many smart people who can make up the history and future of prophethood. You just need a good imaginable mind to do this. This cannot make someone a prophet.

3rd Criteria, LOL. But if its to tell the future, then fortune tellers or better yet Nostradamous would be a prophet.

As for your 2nd part. Yes, i also agree that it is wrong to pass judgements on the nature of God.

Now to the main issue. I really like your last comment. "And I don't for one moment think that someone who claims to be a prophet is any more or any less of a prophet than I am". All the criteria you have listed would not make someone any different from many people. Your criteria for a prophet makes it possible for many people to be a prophet. So what is the only thing that someone who is claiming to be a prophet use to prove his prophethood? How can he prove it to people?

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There is nothing. He can't prove it. Its a matter of belief and faith, not evidence.

But can you tell me why I should share that belief?

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dlowan,

I'm just making some progress here with Qkid, so keep you big floppy smoking ears out of this...for the moment Smile

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now i feel bad about my latent bunnyism Crying or Very sad

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This is a good game!

Miss Jean Brodie used to play it with her "girls". She would ask "who is the most famous Italian" and wait for an answer e.g. "Leonardo" so that she could reply "Wrong -its Mussolini".

Is that sort of game isn't it Qkid ?
e.g. "Who thought he heard God's voice ?" /answer/ "George Bush"/wrong/ "Mohammed".

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Islam miracles.

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