Organic question

Excellent marketing. When the guys at Rodale popularized growing stuff without any chenicals, its my opinion that they dont increase flavor, sustainability or safety of the food appreciably. To me, its all marketing hype.

Much of the "organic" subsances and tricks dont even work.

I remember a farmer in mid-state Illinois who fertilized his fields with sludge from Chicago sewage settling ponds. As a result he was able to market his produce as 'organic' even though it had significant amounts of residual heavy metals precipitated in the sewage treatment.

BTW I define organic, by the definition given in Morrison&Boyd's Organic Chemistry--A compound containing primarily carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen (CHON).

When I see 'organic' in reference to food--what goes through my simple mind is asphalt is organic, but I wouldn't recommend it as food.

Rap

"Organic" means that I'm about to pay more for the same damn thing.

same thing happened inPA where Philly sewage sludge was used to reintroduce bacterial flora to a hillside that had been denuded by Ainc Oxide residues form early smelting of zinc ore. The tomato plants abounded (probably from all the spaghetti sauces that were recycled via the sewage system). The tomatoes were harvested by locals .However, some wag did an AA analysis and found that the heavy metals burden in the actual tomatoes was nearly toxic, the people then quit harvesting tomatoes from the reclaimed hillside.
I think that the definition has been skewed to the alternates where the farming practices are derivedfrom or linked to "living things". Its true that, many ag chemicals are organic (halocarbons or halophosphates are organic compounds

As a biochemist, the word organic means only one thing to me. "C"

Interesting--but I may have an exception, at least an exception to organic and carbon.

That would be diamond, carbon but not organic. Graphite, interestingly could be.

Rap

Not true, Tosborne. I've worked on both organic and non-organic farms and there is a big difference in how crops are treated (or not treated). It's terrible how sick farm workers get from applying pesticides and I'm sure consuming them is not a good idea. Ignoring the deeper environmental issues this is a pretty good list:

http://planetgreen.discovery.com/food-health/eat-organic-foods.html

Since not all things are grown with pesticides and fungicides, organic is sometimes not an issue. Personally, I think you can skip organic when buying things like tree nuts, maple syrup, garlic (although avoid it from China), and certainly salt. I also don't buy organic milk if it has been ultra- pasteurized, which basically means cooked to death. I'll take local milk lightly pasteurized even it is not organic. The downside is the cattle might have been feed cotton seed (heavily sprayed because it is not classified as food) and the pesticides show up in the milk. Non-organic dairies use antibiotics and there is no way to know how much is being used. Most dairy farms no longer use rBST and rBGH, so I don't worry about that. I mostly get annoyed with deceitful labeling, like saying chicken and pork have been raised without hormones. It is illegal to use hormones on those animals and farmers just wouldn't have cause to waste the money. They only label it that way so people will think it is healthier. I would highly recommend eggs from organic free-range chickens, as that is a food that is truly very different from the big commercial enterprises.

Back in the day, organic was carbon, hydrogen, oxygen.
I've been out of class for long. Nothing about nitrogen. Which means that I am older.

Organic re raising of plants, another world, philosophically, which I will abbreviate as orp - not meant as a dig, these are two differentiated concepts.
I've been waiting for someone to mention that on this thread.

No posts yet on the distinctions of these concepts.

It depends on the context. In the context of chemistry, it means "based on carbon chains". In the context of food, it means "produced in accordance with certain norms. (Insert description of those norms.)" It isn't unusual for a word to be context-dependant like this. For another example, consider the word "energy": its meaning varies, too, depending on whether its context is physics or psychology.

You're living in La-la land. In the United States, if a chicken is in a cage 9" x 9" x 12", it meets USDA requirements. Expand one of those 9" dimensinos to 12", so that it's now 9" x 12" x 12" and you are entitled to advertise your eggs as coming from "free range" chickens. Thomas has pointed out the importance of context. For purposes of buying one's food, the only contexts which matter are those recognized by the USDA and the FDA.

They tried to give me an organic in the hospital once, didn't work out very well.
I'm pretty feisty when I need to be.

Well, like duh. Why is this hard?

Organisms.

I seem to prefer physics and chemistry.

Rap

This one's certified organic.

I don't mind reading labels.

Having worked as a chemist I got out of that racket early so I could see the outdoors.

ORGANIC Farming around here has some of the least appetizing fruits and vegetables to offer. The use of natural manures as fertilizers are ok for starting a plant bed but to do without chemical feeds and certain pesticides, you can make a nice vegetable into a real mess. Ive really never seen exemplary fruits and veggies that were grown "organically". Most Ive seen are best used for pies or preserving. I grow a small garden but grow almost 60 acres of alfalfa and orchard grass hay and Im always rotating another 50 or 70 acres with corn or soybeans. I must use some liquie chem fertilizers and I must use one spray pesyicide called GRMAXON which is specific fro leaf hoppers which can suck the life out of alfalfa especially if its dry.
Weve acquired a new pest called the "Reticulated Stink Bug" which, besides being a pest by invading our houses and wintering over with humans, they are real pests in the fruit and vegetable industry because they suck the juices from ripening fruits and tomatoes and peppers..
Using manures has always , to me, been as great a risk as any organohalogen or organophosphate pesticied. Also, the pesticides are "targeted" on affected crops and fertilizers are applied sparingly along with vitamins like B-1.
Organic farms will also use the dame class of chemicls like vitamins but will use them from a "organic" source, whereas I use B-1 from a "Natural source".
The marketing hyoe for organic is certainly a good one. The main thrust of organic farming is first to have you fear your food and shun anything that mentions using "chemicals".
Yet the organic market still use rock phosphate which can contain heavy metals as can manures and mushroom compost. Not too many farmers use chemicals with long carry overs and half lives. The chemicals available today have short duration efectivenes and break down (usually to an acetate salt or even more basic components). Organic "weed killers" include cinnamon oil which itself has a long carryover and has its own break down products . Yet its "approved" as bebign.

Im always curious how organic farms deal with fungus and mildews because compost breakdown is a host mass for fungi and how to deal with these types of plants has always been a problem in humid areas.
The "free range animal gimmick is kinda laughable. The definition of an animals access to an "exercise yard " that is big as a Tic Tac box is funny. I raise beef (not orhanically) but naturally. I use wormers on livestock only once in their lives and then rotate pastures religiously. I also keep my numbers of animals low per acre (Right now we have NO steers only sheep). Our markets are strong and because we are part of a grow cadre who supports "natural means" (Not necessarily chemical free) , Our animals are TESTED and anything is available fro residue reports. Weve NEver had any carryover in the meat for any wormer or anything like viatmins or supplements (nobody uses sterbesterols any more)
There are NO effective animal worming agents that are organic . I read the literature weekly and PEnnState ag scjool and New Bolton Centers keep their websites full of information re anything thats new or great.
Several long term tests of **** like "diatomaceous earth" wormers have been carried on and these were abysmal failures. If there were some good organic alternative medicine out there. I think everyone would use em. The orgnic industry h and Rodale Institute have been the biggest supporters of non chemical worming agents and its a shame how they stretch the truth about effectiveness. More animals die from annelid induced anemias than just about anything. This could be prevented by a decent chemical worming agent that is given just once and then the animal is kept on pasture that is rotated.
" Grass fed" animals are one of the big problems for worm infestations. MAny small organic farmers dont have enough pasture to effectively rotate especially when they load up their fields with 6 or 8 animals per acre in the east and the wprms just abound in these environments.

Im up late, on a lot of coffee and doing work, I just thought Id check in on this topic again

Organic is the final stage of sex .

I buy free range tomatoes... never that greenhouse stuff....

I used to read Morrison&Boyd's Organic Chemistry cover to cover each summer when teaching. Now, I still read Jerry March's Advanced Organic Chemistry, while wearing out two editions.