Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
Fine with me; we disagree as to what the best action to take would be.

If you're fine to agree to disagree, please stop misrepresenting what I say. I never said a default would be healthy. I said it's the lesser evil. Please note: lesser, but still evil. That's far from " healthy".

If the government were to pursue the line that they say they would - to pay the debt interest instead of allowing default, to the detriment of about a hundred billion dollars of scheduled spending priorities - do you still believe it would be the lesser of two evils, as compared to doing a deal with the Republicans?

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thanks, Cyclo and Thomas for an interesting discussion and I am glad that you two have decided that there is not much more to say.
I am convinced that there will not be a default. The Cap, Cut and Balance idea will pass the House tonight but will wither and die in the Senate and never get to the President.
The Gang of Six plan will, I think, get through the Senate and, if it gets to the House, there will be enough Tea Party types who will decide that they may have pushed as far as they could for the moment. They may decide to back off out of fear of the unknown.

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

You really think the 'balance' part will pass the House? It takes a 2/3rds vote to do so...

Re: the gang of 6 plan, it won't be done in time for the debt ceiling, that's for sure. Instead, look for the McConnell plan to get put forth, and for this to become the basis of 2012 budget negotiations (now that the Ryan plan is for all practical purposes dead).

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

Senate moves to solve debt impasse

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

If the government were to pursue the line that they say they would - to pay the debt interest instead of allowing default, to the detriment of about a hundred billion dollars of scheduled spending priorities - do you still believe it would be the lesser of two evils, as compared to doing a deal with the Republicans?

I reject this choice. In that case, I would revise my view that the current Democratic establishment consists of reasonable non-hostage-takers. I would look for ways I can support a Tea-Party-of-the Left movement within the Democratic party, and perhaps help a left-wing third party bring down Obama in 2012. A Republican party that sells out America to the coupon-clipping class is bad enough. A Democratic establishment that does the same is not worth supporting over a candidate Romney.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Oh, right, because candidate Romney wouldn't be a hundred times worse in every single way, when it comes to the policies you support. Wonderful plan.

The treasury and WH disagree with you re: the seriousness of defaulting on our debt. That doesn't mean that they are wrong - you should consider the idea that your projections of what a default would mean for us, politically and economically, may not in fact be accurate or complete.

That's not to say that THEIRS is any more accurate or complete than yours; I'm not trying to say that you are wrong, and they are right. But it's perfectly valid for them to be making decisions on a fundamentally different set of assumptions than you are; and that changes what they are doing, from hostage-taking, to acting in a pragmatic fashion. You may want to consider this before condemning them and pulling the lever for someone who would work to destroy every policy you care about.

Cyclotpichorn

1 Reply

Breaking News Alert: Post-ABC News poll: Obama, Republicans viewed as not willing enough to compromise on debt ceiling
July 19, 2011 6:21:26 PM
----------------------------------------

Majorities of Americans see both President Obama and congressional
Republicans as not being willing enough to compromise in their stalemated
budget negotiations, but the public sees the GOP leaders as particularly
intransigent, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News Poll.

There is also growing dissatisfaction among Republicans with the hard-line
stance of their congressional representatives: 58 percent now say their
leaders are not doing enough to strike a deal, up from 42 percent in March.

http://link.email.washingtonpost.com/r/PSLW3N/KE3NZG/NF43AJ/TXRD8K/3P2OB/1G/h

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn, I'm done discussing this with you. If you're not, talk to the avatar.

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@Cycloptichorn,

I think so, re the balance part. It looks good on a resume.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn, I'm done discussing this with you. If you're not, talk to the avatar.

Storm off in a huff because someone has poked holes in a shitty theory you forwarded? Fine with me, but it's unbecoming.

If you want to get pissy and claim that you will punish your leaders for not being uncompromising and 'strong,' what makes you any different than the Tea Party fools?

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

That's right, because I fear more for the children of today - and less for the seniors. I'm a senior, and I care more for our children's future.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

That's right, because I fear more for the children of today - and less for the seniors. I'm a senior, and I care more for our children's future.

I haven't seen any persuasive evidence that Obama's position on this will harm either our children OR our seniors. In fact, McConnell's plan - which is the one I still think will happen - is like a big, gift-wrapped box for him.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Some of it are owned by the federal reserves (I believe the biggest balance), some state and local governments, funds, corporations, and private citizens, and there are foreign investments in those equities that are not tracked by country.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo, "Political advantage" is the whole deal; the GOP is trying to run our country with a minority by blackmail.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Not Obama's plan. We're talking about the GOP demands.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Not Obama's plan. We're talking about the GOP demands.

Obama's plan is to make a compromise with the GOP. He's consistently said that he's looking for a deal with them.

Seeing as he'd already (foolishly?) embraced Austerity to a certain degree, a debt limit deal that includes cuts - which under the McConnell plan HE would get to define - gives him what he's already asking for. He'll position himself as a centrist, who will have cut government (both of which will be true) and will use this to great advantage in 2012.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Obama's plan is to make a compromise with the GOP.

No it's not... never has been.

Obama's plan is to make sure no blame is directed at him.

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@Cycloptichorn,

If this is what you call "negotiation," I have a completely different take on it.

Quote:

GOP House members demand Obama to produce debt-ceiling plan
By NBC's Scott Foster

A group of freshman House Republicans descended on the White House this morning to demand that President Obama present in writing his own debt-ceiling proposal that reduces the deficit by cutting government spending.

Alongside curious tourists on Pennsylvania Ave, the 21 Republicans held a press conference outside the White House gates to blast the president for what they described as a failure of leadership on the showdown over raising the nation's debt limit.

The group said they came to the White House to get a response to their June letter signed by over 70 House Republicans calling on Obama to "come forward with a detailed plan that reduces the national debt and addresses entitlement reform."

Rep. Mike Kelly (R-PA) declared, "We have asked him [Obama] for a plan... It's time for you to be president and quit being a candidate."

And Rep. Bill Huizenga (R-MI) said, "We have to deal with our spending decisions... I'm here for a solution."

Under sweltering temperatures, the rhetoric during the photo op also became heated with Rep. Jeff Duncan (R-SC) telling Obama: "Get off the golf course" and put his debt ceiling proposal in writing.

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@cicerone imposter,

So what? A bunch of kiddies in the House demanded something of Obama that they're not going to get. That has nothing to do with the negotiations at all.

Obama has no time for these clowns - he's doing the deal with McConnell and Boehner. They've been meeting, but no media reports have been coming out about it, which leads me to believe that progress is actually being made.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

If anyone gives a ****, the vote on the cap, cut and balance has just started in the House. It will pass but will then go nowhere in the Senate, tomorrow.
Sorry, H2O.

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Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

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