Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Cycloptichorn wrote:
You're saying that it would be better for Obama to just tell them to **** off, and let the country go into default - than to take a deal that he wants to take? I cannot understand your reasoning on this.

That's because you're assuming that I like the deal that he wants to take. I don't.

No, I'm not assuming that at all. Because the truth is, whether or not you like the deal is immaterial. What's material is that allowing the debt ceiling to go unraised would probably push us straight back into a recession and very well could screw our bond ratings for a long time, making it more expensive for us to borrow money - which we would then have to do MORE of, because tax receipts are just going to plummet.

Hell, if the limit doesn't go up, we'll have to cut 144 billion or so out of the Federal budget - in August, alone. You don't think that this will have immediate and negative effects upon our economy? That Obama and the Dems will suffer a massive political hit for not doing a deal to prevent this?

Multiply that by every state and municipality in the nation, as their rates are going to go up as well.

I know you're not just good looking, Thomas, you're a smart guy. So think about this for a minute. You're not really thinking the terms of this thing through very well. Taking a deal now is a win-win for Obama; rejecting it (in the name of what) is a dangerous gamble, and frankly I'm not sure what the payoff would be.

I've really noticed, that for Republicans - this is an emotional issue, not a rational one. It's not about the debt, it's about getting one over on Obama and making themselves feel powerful. Don't go down that road the other direction.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Thomas,

I totally agree with this conclusion; the GOP only knows how to play blackmail to win. That's got to stop.

Unfortunately, Obama put himself into this position when he attempted to negotiate with the GOP, and gave away the farm long ago.

Obama never have shown any backbone, and the GOP took advantage of it.

It's child's play. The GOP only knows how to play russian roulette, because they've been winning with this tactic.

It must stop now.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

I'm really surprised at both of you guys. Obama is going to come out of this smelling like a rose, and the GOP base is fractured over this issue. Many in their base are claiming that ANY debt limit raise will result in Tea Partiers abandoning the GOP in 2012.

Being a crafty negotiator is a far better skill than having a stiff backbone all the time. Bush jr. had a stiff backbone - and look where it got him. Not much of what he wanted actually passed, once he didn't control everything. I would hope that our guy would be smarter than to just ape what the last guy did.

Cycloptichorn

2 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

I agree with Thomas and C.I.. Its time for Obama to grow some balls and help the people who elected him rather than cave in to the conservatives. He has shown himself to be a conservative lite. Not even a centerist.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cyclo, Haven't you still learned that what the tea partiers say is meaningless? The problem is that you trust what they say; I don't. The only game in town is their threat about no deal if there's an increase or new taxes.

Most Americans - including republicans and independents believe some tax increase is justified.

I also believe congress must revise social security and Medicare to save cost. These funds cannot continue to sustain the longer life spans and increasing costs.

Let the GOP win this one; no increase in the debt ceiling, and see what happens. I want to see this happen; real pain for everybody will make them think twice about these GOP tactics they've been using against Obama will backfire.

It's like the Murdoch fiasco; we need to clean house now.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

Let the GOP win this one; no increase in the debt ceiling, and see what happens. I want to see this happen; real pain for everybody will make them think twice about these GOP tactics they've been using against Obama will backfire.

A very cavalier thing to say, considering that it would likely push us deep into recession and cost the jobs of thousands. So nice of you to say we should 'see what happens.' That is what will happen - real pain, embarrassment for the US, total loss for Obama. I can't get behind such a poorly-thought out plan.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

That's right! If you want to play chicken, I'll play, but be ready to pay the piker. Make all the threats you want; I'll play till the end.

Let's see who remains standing at the end.

Oh, and one more thing: the American middle class and the poor has not gained much for some thirty years, because most of the increase in production - profits - went to the CEOs. The GOP doesn't want the rich to pay their "fair share" in taxes, because they say, "it's shifting money from the wealthy to the middle class and the poor." What do you think has been happening in the reverse for thirty years?

Get real!

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Well, all I can say is that polling shows that the vast majority of Americans - of all political stripes - want to see a compromise. I don't see how it's a political win to force a total capitulation of the GOP at this point - though I can see how it might feel EMOTIONALLY good.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

It's not about emotion; it's about progress for our country. When one side fails to negotiate in good faith to make our government run, that's called blackmail. That must cease immediately. The only way that will happen is to make the cost painful for everybody.

Blackmail should not be sustained with excuses.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

It's not about emotion; it's about progress for our country. When one side fails to negotiate in good faith to make our government run, that's called blackmail. That must cease immediately. The only way that will happen is to make the cost painful for everybody.

Blackmail should not be sustained with excuses.

The blackmail has already failed; did you miss that part? The GOP tried to force huge spending cuts on Obama, and failed to do so. Now they have egg on their faces and their caucus is in disarray.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

The blackmail did not fail; the threat of default with the notice of downgrading US debt by S&P and Moody has a cost.

0 Replies

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Thomas wrote:
[...][Y]ou're assuming that I like the deal that he wants to take. I don't.

No, I'm not assuming that at all. Because the truth is, whether or not you like the deal is immaterial.

It's material to understanding my reasoning, which you said you're failing to do. Default is bad. So is contractionary fiscal policy in a deep recession. There comes a point where default is not worth avoiding, given the destructive contractionary policies it takes to avoid it. That's my reasoning on this matter. You're free to agree or disagree with it. But when you tell me you don't understand my reasoning, I explain it to you, and you tell me the explanation is immaterial, you're just being a boor.

1 Reply

I dont like Bill Clinton much, but I am happy that he agrees with me here

Quote:

Bill Clinton has an easy answer for the current debt stalemate: If push comes to shove, President Obama should just raise the ceiling on his own and force Republicans to sue to stop him.

“I think the Constitution is clear and I think this idea that the Congress gets to vote twice on whether they pay for [expenditures] it has appropriated is crazy,” the former president said in an interview with the National Memo.

Clinton said he’d used the so-called constitutional option that relies on a clause in the 14th Amendment that some have interpreted to mean the president can take all necessary steps to maintain the good credit of the United States. The former president said he’d do so “without hesitation, and force the courts to stop me

http://slatest.slate.com/posts/2011/07/19/bill_clinton_14th_amendment_constitution_clinton_says_he_d_use_c.html

3 Replies

@hawkeye10,

That's not a bad idea, either. I miss Bill Clinton.

2 Replies

Cyclotroll appears to be in a bit of a panic... I guess his savior is not all-that after all.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

That's not a bad idea, either. I miss Bill Clinton.

I dont like negotiations carried out at gunpoint....it is unamerican. Besides, every dollar spent has been approved by Congress, and every dollar spent after Aug 2 will have been approved by Congress if we do nothing more, they have had their say.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

I don't miss Bill Clinton but I'll give him props on that one.

1 Reply

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

I don't miss Bill Clinton but I'll give him props on that one.

It is not his idea, I first saw it in print almost two weeks ago from someone else. Clinton gets props for finding the best idea floating around, but not for its creation.

Edit: as a bonus it would be fun to watch the REPUBS reaction as they hear that the game of chicken that they have attempted to impose on the country has been aborted......

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

No, I know it's not his idea. It's been bouncing around for a while and I've been agreeing with it since I first heard it discussed.

http://able2know.org/topic/173915-3#post-4652807

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

Watch Geithner's video on Politico for his take on invoking the 14th Amendment.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/59331.html

1 Reply

Tick, tick. August 2nd is the Debt Limit Armageddon. Or Not.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know