19
   

Texas wants to turn the lights off on a federal plan to phase out certain light bulbs

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 04:11 pm
@saab,
saab wrote:

EU has forced us to use the energylow bulbs too.
They are very contraversial in different countries over here too.
The Swiss IT’IS has a recomandation that you should never sit closer than 30 cm to such a bulb. It can cause healthproblems. If you sit very close over a long time - month years - these bulbs can maybe cause skincancer. This is just one of many arguments against them.
But who wants to sit something like 5 cm close to a lamp for years?


I'm curious who would sit within 5 cm of a traditional incandescent lamp? You might as well stick your head in an EZ Bake oven.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 06:01 pm
@saab,
Quote:
You cannot change an old house into a passivhouse.


It is possible for houses to be retrofitted to attain that level of energy reduction, Saab.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 06:22 pm
@JTT,
Quote:
It is possible for houses to be retrofitted to attain that level of energy reduction, Saab.
How many years will such action take to pay off...assuming of course that the action does not make the humans sick due to lack of fresh air into the house?

20 years ago underground houses where all the rage, but they never took off due to maintenance cost and because of mold problems caused by living underground where all but one wall of the structure lined with dirt. Any energy savings over ownership can be eaten up by the costs of one person getting sick.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jun, 2011 06:33 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
How many years will such action take to pay off...assuming of course that the action does not make the humans sick due to lack of fresh air into the house?


An air exchanger would be part of such a retrofit, Hawk. 'payback' is always a hard thing to determine. Is the retrofit part of a renovation? People often spend far more money on fancy anyway.

Quote:
20 years ago underground houses where all the rage, but they never took off due to maintenance cost and because of mold problems caused by living underground where all but one wall of the structure lined with dirt. Any energy savings over ownership can be eaten up by the costs of one person getting sick.


As with anything, if it's done properly, there's no problem.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 01:19 am
What about this bulb?
http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/28990

The article was in a Danish paper with a link to above article in English.
0 Replies
 
saab
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 01:54 am
@hawkeye10,
I tried to look into it and found the best infos over Denmark.
The houses are about 10% more expensive than a normal house.
If you want a basement it will be very expensive in comparasing with a normal house and you should not have one under a passiv house.
You save on heating and electricity, but your loans are higher as the house is more expensive, so your actual annual bills, taxes, loans, electricity will be a bit under - but not much - than a normal house.
After 10 years you will be able to see the difference.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 02:54 am
@saab,
saab wrote:

I tried to look into it and found the best infos over Denmark.
The houses are about 10% more expensive than a normal house.
If you want a basement it will be very expensive in comparasing with a normal house and you should not have one under a passiv house.
You save on heating and electricity, but your loans are higher as the house is more expensive, so your actual annual bills, taxes, loans, electricity will be a bit under - but not much - than a normal house.
After 10 years you will be able to see the difference.
doing some fast computing what I get is

Me 10 cents per k-hour electric

Sweden 22 cents

Me 3.75 cents k-hour natural gas

Sweden 15.72 cents

Of course we all know that America thrives on cheap to the customer energy, which is a big part of why we waste so much. I got royally burned by buying a very energy efficient tankless (on demand) water heater because at the prices I pay for energy I will never make back the cost of the unit over a cheap old fashioned energy wasting hot water tank. A high efficiency home in America would be the same poor economic decision, if there is not an economic payoff at European energy prices then Americans should not ever consider the matter.

However, the Germans might want to look into such things, as they are already paying 35 cents a kilowatt hour for electric, and thanks to there idiot decision to shut down the nuclear industry they are going way up from that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 03:13 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:


However, the Germans might want to look into such things, as they are already paying 35 cents a kilowatt hour for electric, and thanks to there idiot decision to shut down the nuclear industry they are going way up from that.


We pay 21 Euro cents (30 US cents) per kwh.
We don't have surface power lines in hamlets, villages, towns and cities.

However, we pay more for all and everything here, not just energy, compared to the US.

hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 03:28 am
@Walter Hinteler,
I was going off of this for EU pricing

http://www.energy.eu/

Quote:
We don't have surface power lines in hamlets, villages, towns and cities.
I am assuming that you will now that you are forced to set up wind farms far from where power is needed on the quick. Bloomberg is saying that you need to put 10 billion euros into the gird alone in the next ten years, then you need to build a lot of power plants (many of them coal) fast too. Damn, that is a stupid move.

I notice that the government is telling you all that this will only cost you 100 euro a year in higher electric prices, but they dont like to talk about the other 50 billion euro it will cost to shut down the nuclear plants and build new energy sources. That comes out of your taxes buddy. I hope you were not counting on your pension holding out, after you krauts get done bailing out the PIGS and your bone headed moves such as this that piggy bank is going to be about empty.

Quote:
Nuclear energy supplies about one-quarter of the nation’s electricity. Natural gas from Russia is seen as the logical replacement, should Germany follow through on closing out its nuclear plants. The country already imports one-third of its natural gas from Russia.
http://neinuclearnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/germanys-moratorium-on-nuclear-energy.html

HA HA, You Germans should keep in mind how some countries to the East have fared being dependent upon Russian Gas....it is about on par with being dependent on OPEC during 1973
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 04:02 am
@hawkeye10,
Reading some more it appears that 50 billion euro only buys replacement power, the Germans need to add 10 billion for the grid, and then shut down costs which are not really known yet but 25-30 billion euro would be a safe bet. That all comes out to $1500 per German. Doable, but this is not a great time to laying out that much cash.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 04:13 am
@hawkeye10,
Actually, the power companies have to pay for that - power stations aren't run neither by the federal nor by state governments.
(There are some 'town works' ["Stadtwerke", public utility companies], however, which own smaller power stations.)

Electricity have tax-free reserve funds for paying the demolation of nuclear plants.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 04:21 pm
The replacement of the some 25% of electrical power now produced in Germany by nuclear powerplants by domestic wind or other renewable sources is highly implausable. It would require well over a doubling of existing German renewable generation, and, even if that was achieved, would still leave large new requirements for added fossil fuel generating plants, just to provide continuous power when the wind doesn't blow.

The real consequence of the new ban - if it is actually enforced - will be massive investment in new gas turbine plants (relatively cheap compared to new wind turbines) and even greater dependence on imported Russian gas. However former Chancellor Helmut Schroeder, still working for Gasprom, should take care of that.
hawkeye10
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 04:35 pm
@georgeob1,
And the plan is to try to buy power from other countries, but that will be very expensive and like with Russian gas only an idiot would assume that it will obtainable when needed. The germans are building a **** load of coal plants as well, but not enough, and we can now kiss off all German claims that they are green livers.

I think the problem here is that the German people think that their government is as incompetent at running the nuclear industry as the Japanese government has been, but I see no justification for this conclusion.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 04:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
If so the spectacle of new coal fired plants in Germany, burning relatively low quality, high sulfur European coal might have very surprising political consequences. Frankly I doubt that scenario.

I don't believe that Germany can replace the nuclear power generating capacity in the time period specified by any means, and that we have not yet seen the rest of this story.
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 05:03 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

If so the spectacle of new coal fired plants in Germany, burning relatively low quality, high sulfur European coal might have very surprising political consequences. Frankly I doubt that scenario.

I don't believe that Germany can replace the nuclear power generating capacity in the time period specified by any means, and that we have not yet seen the rest of this story.
The current building boom of coal plants was set into motion years ago, but it will certainly get worse now

Quote:
In the long term, the power plants will replace older, dirtier plants. But that doesn't alter the fact that the plans are a direct contradiction of the climate goals formulated by Merkel. While emissions are practically zero in the case of nuclear energy, and while a natural gas-fired plant produces just 428 grams of CO2 emissions per kilowatt hour, a black coal power plant churns a solid 949 grams of CO2 into the atmosphere. The figure for lignite or brown coal -- 1,153 grams -- is even worse.



DER SPIEGEL
03/21/2007
Coal -- great for politicians, bad for the environment.
Estimates by climate protection experts such as Rainer Baake from German Environment Aid (DUH) suggest the new power plants will release at least 150 million tons of CO2 every year. Their output corresponds to only "about a fifth of the output of the power plants currently in place in Germany, but their carbon dioxide output is equal to more than half of the pollutant output allowance granted all power plants for the 2008-2012 period," says Baake, who was junior environment minister under Germany's previous coalition government between the Social Democrats (SPD) and the Green Party.
Experts at the Federal Environment Agency warn of the threat of future mega-emissions. Researchers there recently published a study entitled "Climate Protection and Investment Plans in the Power Plant Sector," in which they demonstrate that the replacement of old power plants by new coal-fired power plants may well result in a decrease in the output of greenhouse gases, but, realistically speaking, the decline will only be 14 percent. At that rate it will be difficult to reach Merkel's declared goal of lowering emissions in Germany by 40 percent compared to 1990 levels.

Quote:
It all sounds good. But no one knows whether it will really be enough. Moreover, one of the greatest climate-related problems -- the current boom in the construction of new coal-fired power plants -- has only been addressed vaguely or in a half-hearted manner by the people involved. The Vattenfall project in Berlin is only one example of a larger trend. Utility companies want to set up a total of 26 new coal-fired power plants in Germany during the coming years.



http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,472786,00.html


INteresingly enough the Germans seem fine with dirty power, even nuclear, so long as it is produced not in Germany

Quote:
Kurth pointed out that since the closure of the seven oldest nuclear power stations in mid-March in Germany, on balance, average of 2500 megawatts of electricity imported. The imports come mainly from France, the Czech Republic and Poland. This had aroused criticism, run as in the countries, particularly nuclear and coal power plants. As long as Germany remains a net importer could tell, no one said Kurth. The wind turbines produced in Germany in the spring and summer, however, relatively little power. Solar energy is also not wear continuously for performance. “The weather can not be changed, even by majority vote of the Bundestag.”
http://economicsnewspaper.com/policy/german/energy-policy-web-agency-wants-new-power-lines-and-coal-power-10101.html
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 05:20 pm
@hawkeye10,
The United States faces a similar problem. The Obama EPA is out to shut down the 52% of our electrical power that is produced by coal fired plants, even though we enjoy ample supplies of lower sulfur higher heating value coal reserves (our next largest source is nuclear power at about 21%). We and China are the leading producers of wind power in the world, but it still amounts to little more than 1% of our electrical power generation. How will we repalce the 52% ????

A 52% reduction is a lot : it won't happen as a result of government action to mandate reduced consumption of electrical energy in refrigerators or light bulbs
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 05:26 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The United States faces a similar problem. The Obama EPA is out to shut down the 52% of our electrical power that is produced by coal fired plants (even though we enjoy ample supplies of lower sulfur higher heating value coal reserves.
I dont think we need to worry about that...the Germans are hell bent to destroy their economic engine, they will either do that or come off of their plan to end nuclear again (the first plan to end it was hatched in 2002 I think, rescinded by Merkel in 2009 I think) . We in the West have gotten stupid re how important it is to have a reliable and affordable power source, but the realities of the global economic system will reteach the lesson soon enough. The lesson will be painful, as many important lessons are. Wind power appeals to our sensibilities, but it is expensive and it is not reliable. We also lose a lot in transmission.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_ele_pow_tra_and_dis_los_mil_kwh_percap-losses-million-kwh-per-capita
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 06:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
My point of course is that we Americans will watch the Germans self destruct, and then say "hold up just one cotton pick-in minute!"...look at how fast we came off of organic food and "sustainable ag" once the Great Reccession hit for instruction...
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 06:24 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
...look at how fast we came off of organic food and "sustainable ag" once the Great Reccession hit for instruction...


http://www.organicnewsroom.com/2011/04/us_organic_industry_valued_at.html


Quote:
BRATTLEBORO, VT. (April 21, 2011)—The organic industry grew at a rate of nearly eight percent in 2010, bucking the current trend whereby “flat is the new growth” for many other segments of the economy. Further, some sectors of the organic market enjoyed annual growth of well over 30 percent, the Organic Trade Association (OTA) revealed today in releasing findings from its 2011 Organic Industry Survey. In 2010, the organic industry grew to over $28.6 billion.

“While total U.S. food sales grew by less than one percent in 2010, the organic food industry grew by 7.7 percent,” said Christine Bushway, OTA’s CEO and Executive Director. “Consumers continue to vote with their dollars in favor of the organic choice. These results illustrate the positive contribution organic agriculture and trade make to our economy, and particularly to rural livelihoods,” Bushway said.

She added, “The good news is that even as the economic recovery crawls forward, the organic industry is thriving – and hiring.”


etc etc
hawkeye10
 
  0  
Reply Sun 19 Jun, 2011 06:32 pm
@ehBeth,
2008 US organics sales was $33 billion...we are now at $28.6 when we were projected pre great recession to be at over $50 billion by now.

I have noticed that your thinking is very shoddy, you might want to work on that.
 

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