21
   

Glenn Beck TV Show to End

 
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Tue 12 Apr, 2011 10:27 pm
@JTT,
Yes he was all that and he enjoyed a bottle or two of bourbon a day.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 07:01 am
@lockeWiggins,
lockeWiggins wrote:

That the government would pass the completely anti-american health care bill.


Obamacare is Anti-American and the left didn't pass the bill as much as they shoved
it down our throats telling us we had to pass it before we could find out what's in it.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 09:24 am
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
as much as they shoved it down our throats telling us we had to pass it before we could find out what's in it.


So it wasn't a bill, it was a plebiscite.
lockeWiggins
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 10:05 am
I apologize for my earlier statements,

I spoke on something without returning to it in a while
it has not been overturned but has been declared unconstitutional. And is on a speedy track to be overturned.

I say it is un-american because it forces all americans to have health care which should not be a government affair.

this is different from car insurance because an individual not having car insurance conflicts with the general publics right to the pursuit of happiness.

an individuals health care in my opinion does not conflict with anyones life, liberty or pursuit of happiness other than the individual involved. Making it a personal decision, not a requirement. once again all in my opinion.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 10:09 am
@JTT,
You would prefer a suppository administered by an Obamacare supporter?
Cycloptichorn
 
  5  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 10:10 am
@lockeWiggins,
lockeWiggins wrote:

I apologize for my earlier statements,

I spoke on something without returning to it in a while
it has not been overturned but has been declared unconstitutional. And is on a speedy track to be overturned.


Laughing You sure about that? I would caution you about making such statements, as the Constitutional authority for the ACA is quite clear and there's a lot of pre-existing case law that supports the authority of Congress to regulate this activity.

Quote:
I say it is un-american because it forces all americans to have health care which should not be a government affair.


Yes, it should, because its' everyone's problem when you don't have health care. People don't just die quietly. They cause a lot of problems and expenses on the way out, expenses that are borne by the rest of us whether we like it or not.

Quote:
this is different from car insurance because an individual not having car insurance conflicts with the general publics right to the pursuit of happiness.

an individuals health care in my opinion does not conflict with anyones life, liberty or pursuit of happiness other than the individual involved. Making it a personal decision, not a requirement. once again all in my opinion.


Your opinion is fine to have, but it's not backed up with a lot of logical or factual argumentation.

Cycloptichorn
lockeWiggins
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 10:30 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Im confused now caution me about apologizing or about saying that it is on a speedy track to be overturned... as to the overturned statement im just going off the facts that Judge Roger Vinson, in Pensacola, Fla., ruled that as a result of the unconstitutionality of the "individual mandate" that requires people to buy insurance, the entire law must be declared void.

And what problems would I cause you personally if i died right now, the only people that i would effect would be my family who have a responsibility to me. as i to them. Maybe a few tax dollars go to cremating a jane doe but still how does health care protect against that are you suggesting universal life insurance now as well.
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 10:45 am
@lockeWiggins,
lockeWiggins wrote:

Im confused now caution me about apologizing or about saying that it is on a speedy track to be overturned... as to the overturned statement im just going off the facts that Judge Roger Vinson, in Pensacola, Fla., ruled that as a result of the unconstitutionality of the "individual mandate" that requires people to buy insurance, the entire law must be declared void.


Sure, but a lower court ruling on this is meaningless. Three other judges have ruled that the ACA is in fact Constitutional. It's going to be appealed all the way up to the SC, so until that happens, it's wrong to say that the law has been overturned or even is on track to be overturned...

Not only that, but I wouldn't quote Vinson as an authoritative source on this. His decision was both poorly sourced and written and consciously ignores a great deal of case law, both recent and not, that says he is plainly incorrect.

Quote:
And what problems would I cause you personally if i died right now, the only people that i would effect would be my family who have a responsibility to me.


People don't just drop dead; they take a long time to die. That whole time you will either be sick and not working or an invalid and be supported by the Government. Either way you are consuming resources but not producing activity, which is a net loss for everyone. Not only that but it is destructive to both your family and your job.

Quote:
as i to them. Maybe a few tax dollars go to cremating a jane doe but still how does health care protect against that are you suggesting universal life insurance now as well.


You're conflating two different things here. I'm not concerned what happens AFTER people die, but BEFORE they do. And there is ample evidence that this costs everyone a whole lot of money.

Cycloptichorn
lockeWiggins
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 11:12 am
@Cycloptichorn,
The fact of the matter is that the financial burden that your talking about would not be solved by this bill anyway.

the biggest portion of unpaid medical expenses are accrued by illegal immigrants who under the HCB wouldnt have it anyway.

In California, a 2004 study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform put the state's annual cost at $1.4 billion. Similar studies in Colorado and Minnesota in 2005 came up with much smaller estimates: $31 million and $17 million, respectively. Texas estimated its 2006 costs at $1.3 billion.

In 2006, the Oklahoma Health Care Authority estimated that it would spend about $9.7 million on emergency Medicaid services for unauthorized immigrants and that 80 percent of those costs would be for services associated with childbirth.[22]

If you want to solve the financial burden on the taxpayers universal health care is not the solution repealing the U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 is the only way.
lockeWiggins
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 11:13 am
@Cycloptichorn,
And that means repealing it under its current context. Maybe tweaking it to exclude illegal imigrants from such protection.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 11:19 am
@lockeWiggins,
lockeWiggins wrote:

The fact of the matter is that the financial burden that your talking about would not be solved by this bill anyway.


No problem is entirely solved by a single bill. The goal is to improve the situation in some way, not to magically fix every problem.

Quote:

the biggest portion of unpaid medical expenses are accrued by illegal immigrants who under the HCB wouldnt have it anyway.


This is a false assertion on your part.

Quote:
In California, a 2004 study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform put the state's annual cost at $1.4 billion. Similar studies in Colorado and Minnesota in 2005 came up with much smaller estimates: $31 million and $17 million, respectively. Texas estimated its 2006 costs at $1.3 billion.


I do not believe that FAIR is a reputable or trustworthy source for such information.

Quote:
In 2006, the Oklahoma Health Care Authority estimated that it would spend about $9.7 million on emergency Medicaid services for unauthorized immigrants and that 80 percent of those costs would be for services associated with childbirth.[22]

If you want to solve the financial burden on the taxpayers universal health care is not the solution repealing the U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act of 1986 is the only way.


You are conflating two different issues here, all while dodging the points that I made above. This is essentially boring to me. Suffice it to say that the ACA is in fact both constitutional and American, and that you probably ought to do some more research into the matter before blithely stating that it is neither.

Cycloptichorn
lockeWiggins
 
  0  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 12:05 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Wow.
then who do you consider a viable scource to recieve information.
every scource that I have brought up has been untrustworthy to you.
but I dont blame you it seems to be a common theme umongst certain individuals in these forums if you have different data from a better source please provide it.
what about the university of california who came up with similar conclusions when the 30 million dollars that bankrupted a southern californian hospital, it was found that 15 million was a result of unpaid illegal immigrant health care, while another 5 million was in interest due to the unpaid immigrant health care.

A RAND study concluded that the total federal cost of providing medical expenses for the 78% illegal immigrants without health insurance coverage was $1.1 billion

how about University of san diego
According to the report, between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services became unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals verge on closure, the author writes.

what about the INS whos states
Almost $190 million or about 25 percent of the uncompensated costs southwest border county hospitals incurred resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to illegal immigrants

which agency do would you consider viable. oh and please give me the statistics that they have found.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 12:37 pm
@lockeWiggins,
lockeWiggins wrote:

Wow.
then who do you consider a viable scource to recieve information.
every scource that I have brought up has been untrustworthy to you.


You've only discussed two sources that I know of - Glenn Beck, who nobody takes seriously, and FAIR, who has a clear anti-immigrant, right-wing agenda. Neither are trustworthy sources of information on the topics we've discussed.

I don't know if that really counts as 'every.' More like 'both.' But, you could always find an unbiased source to quote if you tried.

Quote:
but I dont blame you it seems to be a common theme umongst certain individuals in these forums if you have different data from a better source please provide it.


As the proponent of an argument, it's your responsibility to provide credible evidence to support that argument - not mine. You're basically asking me to prove your case, which I have no interest in doing.

Quote:
what about the university of california who came up with similar conclusions when the 30 million dollars that bankrupted a southern californian hospital, it was found that 15 million was a result of unpaid illegal immigrant health care, while another 5 million was in interest due to the unpaid immigrant health care.


Do you have a link to this? I'd have to evaluate the study itself. It's customary to link to things like this in order to avoid confusion...

Quote:
A RAND study concluded that the total federal cost of providing medical expenses for the 78% illegal immigrants without health insurance coverage was $1.1 billion


So what? 1.1 billion dollars is nothing at all. It's inconsequential and not even worth our notice.

Quote:
how about University of san diego
According to the report, between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services became unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals verge on closure, the author writes.


This does not directly state that illegal aliens are the cause of this, so it's not material to the discussion.

Quote:
what about the INS whos states
Almost $190 million or about 25 percent of the uncompensated costs southwest border county hospitals incurred resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to illegal immigrants


Once again, $190 million dollars is nothing at all. You don't seem to understand how much money is spent on health care in this country, if you think these paltry sums are what drive costs.

Quote:
which agency do would you consider viable. oh and please give me the statistics that they have found.


Like I said above - I'm not doing your work for you.

This whole line of conversation is, anyway, a diversion from the main line, which is: the ACA not only improves our current HC situation, it is both Constitutional and inherently American. And those who say that it is not generally don't have much of a clue what they are talking about. If you want to argue that the ACA is unconstitutional, because you have a specific argument as to which parts of it are barred by the Constitution - by all means, present it. Same with the concept that it is UnAmerican. Otherwise, I'm forced to repeat that this is boring.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 12:42 pm
@lockeWiggins,
Quote:
the biggest portion of unpaid medical expenses are accrued by illegal immigrants who under the HCB wouldnt have it anyway.

Ignorance is all you seem to have lockeWiggins.

You confuse cost with biggest cost. They are not the same thing.
No one is arguing that illegal immigrants don't have a cost. But for you to claim that they make up the biggest cost of unpaid medical expenses isn't supported by data.

Quote:
. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that 59% of the nation's illegal immigrants are uninsured, compared with 25% of legal immigrants and 14% of U.S. citizens. Illegal immigrants represent about 15% of the nation's 47 million uninsured people — and about 30% of the increase since 1980.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm

You are sounding like one guy I ran into a year ago that claimed that his kids school was 80% illegal immigrants. While it might sound scary it is laughable and far from the truth.

15% of the uninsured don't make up the majority of the unpaid medical expenses under any reasonable statistical analysis.
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 01:26 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

You would prefer a suppository administered by an Obamacare supporter?


BOHICA
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 13 Apr, 2011 01:32 pm
@parados,
Not only that, but his own sources disagree specifically on the costs:

Quote:
what about the INS whos states:
Almost $190 million or about 25 percent of the uncompensated costs southwest border county hospitals incurred resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to illegal immigrants


If only 25% of the costs come from uninsured illegal immigrants, the vast, vast majority of costs are, in fact, coming from uninsured Americans. Which the ACA will fix lickety split.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 11:07 am
Putting aside the fact that we're all too mature and reasonable to do such a thing... wouldn't it be great to grab Glenn Beck by his fat face and give him a knee in the balls?
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 11:50 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
Go for it, but wait until he's tea bagging Pelosi.
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:10 pm
you'll be tossing his salad so I'll just kick you in the back of the head.
H2O MAN
 
  -4  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2011 12:42 pm
@blueveinedthrobber,
I have no idea what that means, but I'm sure you are a pro salad tosser from way back.
 

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