7
   

WHAT Did the Germans Have Against the Slavs, in WWII?

 
 
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2011 02:03 pm

WHAT Did the Germans Have Against the Slavs, in WWII?

Does anyone know of their reasoning, on this point?



What was their specific complaint ??
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2011 02:10 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Like with others, it was because of their perceived "racial inferiority".

(That's if you mean by "Slavs" Slavic peoples [Poles, Russians, and others]).
Ragman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 Mar, 2011 03:10 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
How does one explain racism and the fallacies behind it? Why not see all those infinite master race claptrap?

Reasoning...what reasoning? There's no logic to that racist propaganda. It was a tool.

It's clear that Hitler worked on eliminating those he saw as national competition. Why not wrap racist propaganda around his plan to focus his nation's fears into motivation to fight against what he pereceived as nationalistic competition.
Wiki extract:

"The master race (German: die Herrenrasse, das Herrenvolk (help·info)) was a concept adopted as Nazi ideology in which the Nordic peoples, one of the branches of what in the late-19th and early-20th century was called the Aryan race, represent an ideal and "pure race" that was the purest representation of the original racial stock of those who were then called the Proto-Aryans,[1] themselves believed by the Nazis to have prehistorically dwelt on the North German Plain and ultimately to have originated from Atlantis.[2] The Nazis declared that the Nordics (i.e., the Germanic peoples) were the true Aryans because they claimed that they were more "pure" (less racially mixed with non-native Indo-European peoples) than other people of what were then called the Aryan peoples (now generally called the Indo-European peoples), such as the Slavic peoples, the Romance peoples, the Iranian peoples, and the Indo-Aryans.[3] Claiming that the Nordic peoples were superior to all other races, the Nazis believed they were entitled to world domination.[3] This concept is called Nordicism."
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:06 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Like with others, it was because of their perceived "racial inferiority".

(That's if you mean by "Slavs" Slavic peoples [Poles, Russians, and others]).
Thank u, Walter; is it possible
to be more SPECIFIC? "Inferior" is very broad and VAGUE.

Can u add more detail ??





David
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:48 am
@OmSigDAVID,
It's all online, I think. (I'm not going to discuss the Nazi's 'race politics'.)
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Mar, 2011 01:54 am
@Ragman,
Ragman wrote:
How does one explain racism and the fallacies behind it?
Well, by indicating the specific objections that were alleged against them,
that thay were too much of one thing or not enuf of something else.





Ragman wrote:
Why not see all those infinite master race claptrap?
It may well be devoid of value
and untrue, but that does not prevent us from identifying
the issues in dispute, for more specific knowledge thereof.
I sense a gap in my understanding in the dynamics of World War II,
insofar as this is concerned, and I don 't wish to continue to harbor ignorance thereof.

I confess my ignorance that I cannot tell a German from a Slav,
not even if thay were standing in front of me,
nor am I familiar with any significant cultural differences.
Hence, I request elucidation.







Ragman wrote:
Reasoning...what reasoning?
I asked FIRST.


Ragman wrote:
There's no logic to that racist propaganda. It was a tool.
I heard of Slavs surrendering to the SS
and offering to join them in the fight against communism,
but the SS (allegedly) killed them with flame throwers for being Slavs.
A TOOL woud be ACCEPTING their offer of free labor
and their free blood, in the quest to destroy communism,
but the SS passions were such as to reject this.

I desire to know the reason for that.






Ragman wrote:

It's clear that Hitler worked on eliminating those he saw as national competition. Why not wrap racist propaganda around his plan to focus his nation's fears into motivation to fight against what he pereceived as nationalistic competition.
Wiki extract:

"The master race (German: die Herrenrasse, das Herrenvolk (help·info)) was a concept adopted as Nazi ideology in which the Nordic peoples, one of the branches of what in the late-19th and early-20th century was called the Aryan race, represent an ideal and "pure race" that was the purest representation of the original racial stock of those who were then called the Proto-Aryans,[1] themselves believed by the Nazis to have prehistorically dwelt on the North German Plain and ultimately to have originated from Atlantis.[2] The Nazis declared that the Nordics (i.e., the Germanic peoples) were the true Aryans because they claimed that they were more "pure" (less racially mixed with non-native Indo-European peoples) than other people of what were then called the Aryan peoples (now generally called the Indo-European peoples), such as the Slavic peoples, the Romance peoples, the Iranian peoples, and the Indo-Aryans.[3] Claiming that the Nordic peoples were superior to all other races, the Nazis believed they were entitled to world domination.[3] This concept is called Nordicism."
Thank u for the Wiki extract, but tho it mentions
the Slavs, it does not describe their characteristics.

When the nazis denounced them,
presumably thay expressed disapproval of them for some alleged reasons.
I wonder what thay were ?





David
0 Replies
 
urangutan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 04:39 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I am of the belief that, slavic peoples were those who mostly live in the Balkans, through to the north western region of the Black sea. This might place a different emphasis on the answer.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 05:21 am
@urangutan,
urangutan wrote:
I am of the belief that, slavic peoples were those who mostly live in the Balkans, through to the north western region of the Black sea. This might place a different emphasis on the answer.
What is your point ?
urangutan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 05:26 am
@OmSigDAVID,
Depending on whom you call slavs may well vary the discussion. For me I could name several reasons for a disdain toward the peoples of the Balkans yet my answer would difer if I had to refer to the peoples of Polan, Russia or the region in the surrounds of this.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:38 am
@urangutan,
The only difference would be, if you'd talked very specifically about East Slavic, West Slavic and South Slavic people.

But you, urangutan, mix them as well: Russians are East Slavic while Poles are West Slavic.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:39 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, what was Hitler's specific objection to the Slavs ?
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:42 am
It's hard to Wend one's way through this nonsense.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 06:48 am
@OmSigDAVID,
I don't know what really Hitler's objection were.
But 'they' (= the leading Nazis, especially Himmler) regarded some as quite good, others as worse.

But generally, Slavs were seen as a racially inferior group, suitable for enslavement or even extermination (after the "Endsieg").

[There had been a Grosse Planung ("Big Plan") and a Kleine Planung ("Small Plan"), but I've no time to lokk that up just now.]
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 07:15 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I don't know what really Hitler's objection were.
But 'they' (= the leading Nazis, especially Himmler) regarded some as quite good, others as worse.

But generally, Slavs were seen as a racially inferior group,
I know that in a vague n general way,
but I don't know exactly where Hitler thought thay went rong
nor exactly HOW thay were inferior.

Do the Germans still have negative opinions of the Slavs ?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 07:45 am
It is useful to recall that Hitler wanted to take over the Ukraine as a "homeland" for his master race. In Mein Kampf he said that the "Judeo-Bolshevist" regime of the Soviet Union would have to be destroyed to provide living space for the superior German race. To do that, he'd need to go through Poland. Labelling Slavs as inferior was an important component in the propaganda to justify making war on the Soviet Union. They cobbled together a pretext for invading Poland, and their inferior status as Slavs was just such a useful propaganda tool.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 09:56 am
@Setanta,

From what I 've heard,
the Germans really believed that (tho I don 't know the specifics of their motivation).

For instance, I heard of some Slavs being defeated in battle,
and after surrendering to the Germans, offering to join their
military efforts against the communists. According to what
I was told, the response was burning them to death with flame throwers because thay were Slavs.

(The fellow who told me this was an anti-communist Slav.)





David
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2011 12:28 pm
No comment . . .
0 Replies
 
VALTUI
 
  2  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2011 10:39 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Throughout early European history, Germanic tribes were in competition with Slavic ones in Eastern Europe.

We know from history that the Germans had a reputation for their farming skills. When they moved into an area and brought it under their heavy oxen driven plow, they were usually there to stay. Their food surpluses led to their rapid increase. Not only did German population increase, but markets and towns soon sprang up where dense forests and swamps had previously existed. Germanic settlers took credit for the trimming of the forests and draining of the swamplands of Pomerania, Prussia and Silesia; lands which were previously occupied by nomadic Slavic tribes. And many of these ancient Slavic tribes became integrated into the expanding German Reich, such as the Sorbs and the Wends who still live peaceably within modern Germany.

Eventually, as the numbers of Germans in previously Slavic areas increased, and it often came into armed conflict. The Germans believed that they had the greater moral right to these eastern lands, which they refered to as their "Ostmark", because they claimed to be the first to make the land suitable for the plow and settlement. The work "Mark" is an ancient form of the modern word "March" and litteraly meant "Forward Outpost" or "Colony". The German "Ostmark" was spread all accross Eastern Europe and included, in addition to West Prussia and Silesia, sizable settlements in Bohemia, Moravia, Transylvania, (Siebenbürgen), and the Carpathians; the Buchovina and Banat were all famous for their considerable German presence and agra-markets. Last but not least; the great German colony known as the "Volga Republik" of Southern Russia, where the German polulation had once been numbered in the millions. These were not just ethnic colonies, they were productive markets which spead wealth all about them.

So the "expert" German farmers felt superior to their Slavic neighbors because they saw so much of the land under Slavic control and within the Slavic realm as not being very productively used. Today the Slavs, especially the Poles, say the Germans intruded upon ancient Slavic land, and the Germans reply that they took the land the Slavs were not using and made it productive for all. In most cases, the Slavs were glad to have German farmers within their midsts and the two cultures lived side by side in peace.
This is the jist of the centuries long historic conflict between Slavs and Germans in Eastern Europe.

By the time Hitler came to power, it had become a long tradition for Germans to "look to the east" for new lands to settle and this term oftem pops up in his speaches. A sizable chapter of Mein Kampf is also devoted to the concept of German expansion into Eastern Europe.
VALTUI
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Jun, 2011 11:07 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I cannot believe the average German soldier was that racist, nor do I believe they hated Slavic peoples that much. A lot of terribe stories come out of wars. It must be remembered that many non-Germans fought side on side within German battallions on the Eastern Front: There were thousands of Czechs, Hungarians, Romanians, Croatians, Finns, Italians, Slovakians, and many more who were part of the Axis armies and eager to fight for their common cause. This is reality. Do not swollow whole the hateful anti-German stories about race hatred. Most of them are gross exaggerations and war propaganda pure.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jun, 2011 01:05 am
@VALTUI,
VALTUI wrote:
Throughout early European history, Germanic tribes were in competition with Slavic ones in Eastern Europe.

We know from history that the Germans had a reputation for their farming skills. When they moved into an area and brought it under their heavy oxen driven plow, they were usually there to stay. Their food surpluses led to their rapid increase. Not only did German population increase, but markets and towns soon sprang up where dense forests and swamps had previously existed. Germanic settlers took credit for the trimming of the forests and draining of the swamplands of Pomerania, Prussia and Silesia; lands which were previously occupied by nomadic Slavic tribes. And many of these ancient Slavic tribes became integrated into the expanding German Reich, such as the Sorbs and the Wends who still live peaceably within modern Germany.

Eventually, as the numbers of Germans in previously Slavic areas increased, and it often came into armed conflict. The Germans believed that they had the greater moral right to these eastern lands, which they refered to as their "Ostmark", because they claimed to be the first to make the land suitable for the plow and settlement. The work "Mark" is an ancient form of the modern word "March" and litteraly meant "Forward Outpost" or "Colony". The German "Ostmark" was spread all accross Eastern Europe and included, in addition to West Prussia and Silesia, sizable settlements in Bohemia, Moravia, Transylvania, (Siebenbürgen), and the Carpathians; the Buchovina and Banat were all famous for their considerable German presence and agra-markets. Last but not least; the great German colony known as the "Volga Republik" of Southern Russia, where the German polulation had once been numbered in the millions. These were not just ethnic colonies, they were productive markets which spead wealth all about them.

So the "expert" German farmers felt superior to their Slavic neighbors because they saw so much of the land under Slavic control and within the Slavic realm as not being very productively used. Today the Slavs, especially the Poles, say the Germans intruded upon ancient Slavic land, and the Germans reply that they took the land the Slavs were not using and made it productive for all. In most cases, the Slavs were glad to have German farmers within their midsts and the two cultures lived side by side in peace.
This is the jist of the centuries long historic conflict between Slavs and Germans in Eastern Europe.

By the time Hitler came to power, it had become a long tradition for Germans to "look to the east" for new lands to settle and this term oftem pops up in his speaches. A sizable chapter of Mein Kampf is also devoted to the concept of German expansion into Eastern Europe.
WELCOME to the forum, VALTUI!!!
If u feel like telling us anything about yourself,
or your interests u r free to fill out a personal profile.

Thank u for your analysis.
I neither speak nor read German.
Therefore, I cannot read his speaches to ascertain
his complaints about the Slavs. He seemed to be dissatisfied
with them. I' m under the impression that genetics were involved.





David
 

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