2
   

The usual suspects were on the bandwagon all along

 
 
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 12:33 pm
Your proofs seem to be from undisclosed sources. You are asking me and others to trust the word of people who lie for a liveing. My question of how we are destroying Al Queda by toppling Saddums government wasent answered by you or any of your sites. Why dident we attack Saudi Arabia where 15 of the terriosts came from. The Saudies finance and armed Al Queda and still do so in spite of all the T.V. spots the Saudies put on American television. We needed to destroy Al Queda not Iraq. We have used monies to destroy and rebuild Iraq that would have been better used to fight terroists. The excuse of WMD were thin to begin with and now with the control we have established in Iraq we still havent found them. Even Bushes government admits that the weapons that at one time existed were destroyed by the UN inspectors. The reasons for the war were a lie formented by the government to fight an unnessary war. Please explain to me why we arnt trying to git Ben Laden and Al Queda. This was my original question. We have 130,000 soilders in Iraq and 5,000 men in Afganastan where Al Queda is stationed along the Packastani border and still is as far as anyone in our government knows. I want facts not suppositions.
0 Replies
 
MichaelAllen
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 04:24 pm
And what information do you work with that makes you so sure of what you say? People who need the story willing to fabricate anything to get it especially if what they fabricate just makes for the story they wanted all along.

A liberal media with an agenda.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 06:01 pm
MichaelAllen wrote:
Strong ties have been made connecting Osama and Saddam. Osama Saddam link


Yes, that Weekly Standard article. As one Washington Post article I quoted here noted,

Quote:
The classified annex summarized raw intelligence reports but did not analyze them or address their accuracy, according to a senior administration official familiar with the matter.


Raw intelligence data, not checked on whether any of it is actually accurate. As you'll know, the intelligence community produces a lot of raw data - a lot of which proves to be wrong or unfounded. Thats why it goes through the filters of analysis and evaluation - and Lord knows the Bush administration will have taken lots of time to analyse and evaluate each lead it could find. The fact that it has nonetheless not come up with any formal claim of proof and, instead, ended up leaking this raw data to a friendly journal, in itself already suggests they dont have much of a case. (The advantage of leaking such "raw data" is that it might just have the same effect in terms of PR and public opinion as an official pronouncement, yet does not actually have to be shored up with conclusive proof).

In fact, as Daniel Benjamin, author of The Age of Sacred Terror, writes in Slate, the raw data in question is clearly riddled with errors: "in any serious intelligence review, much of the material presented would quickly be discarded". He notes that "There are also glaring mistakes in the analytic material", providing examples such as: "some of the material presented in the article insinuates that Iraq staged the Khobar Towers bombing, when two administrations have laid the blame at Iran's door."

Benjamin writes:

Quote:
The Feith document does not recount many details of an operational relationship, nor does it illustrate a tie that was ongoing, cooperative, and operational. At best, it records expressions of various individuals' wish for a better relationship between the two sides—a desire that does not appear to have been consummated. Meetings between Iraqi officials and al-Qaida members began in the early 1990s, and there are reports that Iraq wanted to "establish links to al Qaeda." In 1993, "bin Laden wanted to expand his organization's capabilities through ties with Iraq." But in 1998, the Iraqis still "seek closer ties," and the sides are still "looking for a way to maintain contacts."

There was a lot of seeking and wanting going on, and perhaps there were even meetings. [..] What is disputed is that the meetings went anywhere. It would not be surprising to find out that the two sides had a de facto cease-fire, as has been alleged. But we're still waiting to see real cooperation in the form of transfers of weapons and other materiel, know-how, or funds; the provision of safe haven on a significant scale; or the use of Iraqi diplomatic facilities by al-Qaida terrorists. The Feith memo mentions a few instances of possible Iraqi assistance to al-Qaida on bomb-building and weapons supply to affiliated groups, but nothing like the kind of evidence that, in Hayes' words, "is detailed, conclusive, and corroborated by multiple sources." [..]

Hayes says, correctly, that the Feith memo "just skims the surface of the reporting on Iraq-al Qaeda connections." [..] What Hayes does not seem to recognize is that many of the treasures he imagines hidden in the existing CIA files [..] would undermine the "'Cliff's notes' version of the relationship" that he says is provided by the Feith memo. Of course there are more reports. When your intelligence service relays, as it should, everything short of sightings of Bin Laden on the moon, 50 reports of varying quality do not amount to much. The remaining material, many who are familiar with it believe, does not confirm the Hayes-Feith version but points in the other direction."


In short, Benjamin suggests, Hayes has been fed exactly that which he says it isn't: "'cherry-picked' bits of intelligence tendentiously presented to the American public". He got lots of raw data, yet none of it actually provides conclusive proof of a working relationship between Al-Qaeda and Saddam's Iraq - and much of it is in fact riddled with mistakes. And if thats the selected intel he's been leaked by the hawks in the government, you can bet your bottom dollar that the stuff he's not been leaked is likely to detract from his argument rather than further strengthen it. For example, "Not surprisingly, none of the reports in the Feith memo mention the aversion that the Baathist and jihadists felt for one another. Similarly, there is no evidence of the contradictory nature of the intelligence. I would bet, for example, that there are plenty of reports putting Bin Laden in Afghanistan and perhaps a half a dozen other places in January 1998, at exactly the time he was supposed to be in Baghdad—and that would be only the most blatant kind of inconsistency."

The problem with raw data, Benjamin explains, is that

Quote:
Attributing a report to a "contact with good access" does not mean the contact's account is true. Proving a report correct, or sufficiently corroborated to be considered plausible, requires a lot more work. Putting all the disparate pieces together and trying to construct a coherent picture—yes, connecting the dots—is harder still, requiring a mastery of all the material. Of course, raw intelligence has its value, especially if you are worried about an imminent attack, but there is a reason why the intelligence community spends so much time and energy putting out "finished product," the reports that evaluate a significant body of information to get the whole picture right. Those are the reports that policy-makers are supposed to rely on in crafting a strategy.


Those are the reports that the administration has not been able to come up with. It has searched and searched and searched for the months leading up to Powell's speech and the months since. Yet it found nothing it dared to make official statements about. That they ended up leaking raw data that doesn't prove much but at least sounds damning actually reinforces the impression that they've gotten desperate about their case. Because mind you, this is stuff thats been around. On another thread, where I mentioned that the Pentagon dubbed these reports "inaccurate", another poster corrected me and specified that all the Pentagon had said was that they'd constituted no new information, and that the info had not been confirmed. Quite. A rehash of old suspicions they never found conclusive proof for, great.

MichaelAllen wrote:
Of course, it's hard to know that when the biased media is bashing any opposition to it's agenda. One hilarious article is Powell Offers Proof of Saddam-Osama Link


Well, I dont know to what extent "the Democratic Underground" represents anything about "the biased media", but yes, that was an hilarious article! Razz
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 06:30 pm
MichaelAllen wrote:
We weren't punishing anyone. That's not the way it works. We are trying to deter any further activity. Saddam ousted. Good start.


How has ousting Saddam been a good start in deterring any further terrorist attacks on the US? Do you really think the current semi-lawlessness, in which Jihadists have been crossing into Iraq across newly porous borders to get together and create a new Afghanistan, offers less of a fertile ground for terrorist conspiracies than the erstwhile secular dictatorship Saddam reigned over?

MichaelAllen wrote:
Other objectives?
[1] Ending Saddam's dictatorship.
[2] Capturing Saddam's men, America's most wanted pack of cards.
[3] Short, decisive victory.
[4] Rebuilding Iraq.
[5] Improving counter-terrorist measures.


Some errors of logic here I think (I added the #s). "Objectives" 2, 3 and 4 each and all concern objectives that come forth from starting this war - they were not objectives underlying to go to war.

Of course you want a war to be "short" and you want to "rebuild" the country afterwards, once you started it. But by themselves, these goals provide zero reasons to start the war in the first place. If France starts a war against Luxemburg out of nowhere, it cant retroactively claim the war "fulfilled its objectives" because France won quickly, captured the Luxemburgese President, and afterwards had light and electricity back on in Luxemburg City within three months. Because none of that provides any rationale for why it attacked Luxemburg in the first place. What was the war to achieve? What was the use of this war?

When it comes to the Iraq war, you only have two of those kind of objectives left, apart from the WMD: terrorist ties and ending Saddam's dictatorship. Neither WMD nor terrorist ties materialised, thus making ending Saddam's dictatorship the only plausible 'fulfilled objective' of the war. Instead, Iraq now has the freedom of semi-anarchy. Thats progress to me, but doesn't explain anything to American citizens who want to know why, out of all the world's dictatorships, their children had to die to unseat this one.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 07:04 pm
Liberal Media
Liberal Media? You mean the same media that put the Iraq War Reality Show on? The same one that was not questioning a damn thing about the reasons that the USA is under immenent threat, spouted by Duby and the gang ad nauseum? The media that was all Nationalistic and gung ho for the War?

The so-called liberal media is owned by wealthy corporate moguls that are part and parsle of the USA Plutocracy. Most of the people that appear on this media are wealthy drones of Capitalist Machine. Prove me wrong about that or shut up about this Liberal Media crap!!!!
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 07:43 pm
nimh wrote:
Thats progress to me, but doesn't explain anything to American citizens who want to know why, out of all the world's dictatorships, their children had to die to unseat this one.

Bush believed he already had a legal right to unseat this one. Whether he did or not is immaterial. He believed he did. In doing so he demonstrated to other leaders of murderous regimes and terrorist groups; he is not just crying wolf.
Since then; Kim Jong IL has agreed to multi-lateral talks that he had said he'd never agree to. Kim is even allowing a team of inspectors into Yongbyon. Seems to me; he got the message. Time will tell if it was "loud and clear" enough.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 08:09 pm
Acting on "belief" is often the sign of poor reasoning skills. If I "believe" my next door neighbor is a martian, and for the safety of my fellow humans I "believe" he must die, I am most certainly not justified in going next door and killing him.
What the Bush administration has demonstrated to "other leaders," is that this group is dangerously unstable and unreasonable.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 08:34 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Acting on "belief" is often the sign of poor reasoning skills. If I "believe" my next door neighbor is a martian, and for the safety of my fellow humans I "believe" he must die, I am most certainly not justified in going next door and killing him.
What the Bush administration has demonstrated to "other leaders," is that this group is dangerously unstable and unreasonable.

The absence of concrete proof leaves little choice but to make decisions based on belief. If Einstein thought like you suggest, there would be no theory of relativity. You wouldn't even be able to vote because couldn't be "certain" of your choice. Your example is utterly useless and is argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It addresses neither previous posts nor your own conclusion at the end of your post.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 08:46 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:

The absence of concrete proof leaves little choice but to make decisions based on belief.

In this case, the absence of concrete proof was supplemented by the evidence that was being collected by the inspection teams. This evidence tended to suggest that Hussein was mostly in compliance.

Quote:
If Einstein thought like you suggest, there would be no theory of relativity. You wouldn't even be able to vote because couldn't be "certain" of your choice.

Falalcious reasoning. There is a major difference between theoretical physics research, voting for political candidates, and deciding to initiate an action that will result in teh deaths of hundreds of thousands. Especially when that decision is dependent upon ignoring evidence.

Quote:
Your example is utterly useless and is argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It addresses neither previous posts nor your own conclusion at the end of your post.

Again: Disagreeing with you is not "arguing for the sake of arguing." If my comments were difficult for you to understand, I apologize. Please tell me what you failed to understand and I will attempt to clarify.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 08:53 pm
I understood them perfectly, bob, and commented accordingly. :wink:
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 08:56 pm
OCCOM BILL wrote:
The absence of concrete proof leaves little choice but to make decisions based on belief. If Einstein thought like you suggest, there would be no theory of relativity. You wouldn't even be able to vote because couldn't be "certain" of your choice. Your example is utterly useless and is argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It addresses neither previous posts nor your own conclusion at the end of your post.


Eh - it's relevant. There's a difference between individual decisions - to cast a vote or explore an avenue of thought, for example - and decisions to make others do things - especially if they involve dying, and/or you're sending them in name of your official capacity. The latter is a whole lot more tricky. Thats why people came up with rules and laws. Judges, for example, are not allowed to decide (whether people should get the death sentence, say) on the basis of their belief - no proof, no sentence.

Politicians have a little more leeway than all that, since they can make laws as well as act on them, but nevertheless the one difference between the old era of autocratic rulers and their international free-for-all of wars of conquest, and the present-day system of national and international law and accountability is that Presidents, too, are not to exclusively go on their personal belief anymore. They should adhere to rules and laws just the same.

According to many people, Bush broke international law by pre-emptively attacking a country that had not attacked his. In defence, he invoked the legal basis of UN resolutions, which according to their authors did not actually provide such a basis - in part exactly because he didn't provide credible proof for his belief. So, it's relevant.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 09:00 pm
Oy, you have one of those brick thingies on your head as well! <blinks>
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 09:35 pm
In my original post regarding the relevance:
Quote:
Bush believed he already had a legal right to unseat this one. Whether he did or not is immaterial. He believed he did.
I was answering your question of;
Quote:
out of all the world's dictatorships, their children had to die to unseat this one.
My answer to "why this dictator" remains the same whether Bush was right or wrong about his authority. That is all I meant by immaterial. The ensuing argument is precisely what I was trying to avoid with latter two sentences. If taken in the intended context, his right/wrong status has no bearing on why he chose that dictator.
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 09:53 pm
Debate
Two cents of advice to Bill. Stop trying to debate with people that are way above your intellect. You come out lookin' real stupid. From your posts it seems that you may have average IQ but after reading responses from others then your responses to them, it becomes real obviousthat you lack the skill to engage in the stream and flounder beneath the water. This mantra of "argument for argument sake" is tiresome, as well as inferior in logic. You speak of common sense but seem to lack any.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 10:06 pm
"Feith-based intelligence"....ain't that a nice turn of phrase?

Did anyone notice that El Baradei's report on Libya was assumed to be just jam-packed with truth, perspicacity, wisdom and even-handedness?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 10:23 pm
Re: Debate
pistoff wrote:
Two cents of advice to Bill. Stop trying to debate with people that are way above your intellect. You come out lookin' real stupid. From your posts it seems that you may have average IQ but after reading responses from others then your responses to them, it becomes real obviousthat you lack the skill to engage in the stream and flounder beneath the water. This mantra of "argument for argument sake" is tiresome, as well as inferior in logic. You speak of common sense but seem to lack any.

Thanks for the advice pistoff, but I think it is uncalled for and your assumptions lack a foundation it fact. I don't place a lot of stock in IQ tests, but since you bring it up; I've never scored less than 130 and usually score closer to 140. I graduated near the top of my class and have managed my personal life well enough to contemplate retirement at the tender age of 35. If you trace the record of conversations with bob you will see that he regularly attacks my posts, frequently without cause, or any input related to the issues being discussed. You and he may very well be above my intellect, but your insulting mannerisms are a poor indication of it. :wink:
0 Replies
 
MichaelAllen
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 10:27 pm
Quote:
The importance of the letter is not particular reports but the sheer scope of the evidence. It would fully entitle any president to treat the possibility of a connection with the utmost gravity, and certainly raises questions about the quality of intelligence analysis.

The public ought to know that this evidence is there. Yet the Washington Post ran a very brief, dismissive story Nov. 15, a Saturday, when attention is skimpy. Perhaps under pressure from continued coverage by the "blogs," The New York Times, cue sheet for the establishment, got around to the story on Thursday, Nov. 20 - at the bottom of Page 14, the third of three pages of Iraq news. And the same day the Post used the letter as an opening into reports of disagreements between the Defense Department and the CIA - on Page 34.

This amounts to hiding the news.

The people who sneer at the possibility of bin Laden-Saddam connections overlap with people who tend to blame Sept. 11 on the failure of the United States to solve all the problems of the Middle East. The recent bloody attacks in Turkey show that it's the modern world itself that the terrorists are trying to destroy. Turning a blind eye to evidence that conflicts with cherished feel-good assumptions is a dangerous habit.


U.S. can't discount Osama, Saddam link

My sentiments exactly. Dismissing an Osama - Saddam connection takes a great deal of gullibility. Something the liberal media is counting on. Yes, that same liberal media that covered the war when everyone was blinded by patriotism. Remember when no one flew the American flag and by September 12, everyone was flying one. Remember when people were tired of hearing America the Beautiful and all of a sudden, it is being sung at every game along with the Star Spangled Banner. Yes, the very same liberal media that followed the war because it would have been a serious dent on popularity and credibility if they didn't.

Quote:
The so-called liberal media is owned by wealthy corporate moguls that are part and parsle of the USA Plutocracy. Most of the people that appear on this media are wealthy drones of Capitalist Machine.


Yeah, isn't a great plus of capitalism that you can make big money from people while you are shoving your ideas down their throats.

In earlier posts, I had stated objectives. They were fast and off the top of my head. See if they don't fit Rumsfeld's stated objectives.

Quote:
Rumsfeld said the goal of the operation is to defend Americans, eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and liberate the Iraqi people.

"Coalition military operations are focused on achieving several specific objectives: to end the regime of Saddam Hussein by striking with force on a scope and scale that makes clear to Iraqis that he and his regime are finished," he said.

Next, Rumsfeld said their goal is "to identify, isolate and eventually eliminate Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, their delivery systems, production capabilities, and distribution networks. Third, he said, they'll "search for, capture, drive out terrorists who have found safe harbor in Iraq."

Fourth, they plan to "collect such intelligence as we can find related to terrorist networks in Iraq and beyond," followed by collection of "such intelligence as we can find related to the global network of illicit weapons of mass destruction activity."

Sixth, they seek "to end sanctions and to immediately deliver humanitarian relief, food and medicine to the displaced and to the many needy Iraqi citizens." Seventh, they plan to "secure Iraq's oil fields and resources, which belong to the Iraqi people, and which they will need to develop their country after decades of neglect by the Iraqi regime."

"And last, to help the Iraqi people create the conditions for a rapid transition to a representative self-government that is not a threat to its neighbors and is committed to ensuring the territorial integrity of that country," Rumsfeld said.


US Military, Civilian Leadership Stress War's Objectives

And reiterated briefly at Defense Official Lists Five U.S. Objectives in a Post-War Iraq

Quote:
Feith, in prepared testimony for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee February 11, said the United States would stay in Iraq long enough to achieve five objectives: the liberation of the Iraqi people; the elimination of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction (WMD); the elimination of its terrorist infrastructure; the safeguarding of its territorial integrity; and the beginning of its political and economic reconstruction.


Ousting Saddam is just a start. It has opened up other countries for inspections and/or talks about ending weapons programs: N. Korea, Libya. Believe what you want about either of those two situations, the media seems to be taking the adverse of everything.

But, don't take it from me. Afghan president Hamid Karzai:
Quote:
Saddam's capture "will definitely have a psychological impact on the whole network of terrorists and terrorism," Karzai told CNN. "It will prove to them that they cannot hide and yet kill people; that they will be found and their terrorism stopped."


Afghan Jirga Debates Constitution
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 11:20 pm
Quote:
My sentiments exactly. Dismissing an Osama - Saddam connection takes a great deal of gullibility. Something the liberal media is counting on.


Dismissing a government claim for which there is no credible evidence equals gullibility. I love newspeak.
0 Replies
 
IronLionZion
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Jan, 2004 11:31 pm
Re: The usual suspects were on the bandwagon all along
What ultra-right website did you get this garbage from?

Fedral wrote:
Still, peacenik Howard Dean - pulling away from the pack - seems headed toward the Democratic presidential nomination. And Democrats generally, from presidential wannabes on down, are saying, "President Bush misled us into war against Saddam on the basis of insufficient information about his possession of, or his efforts to acquire, weapons of mass destruction."


Notice how the author opens by attacking Howard Dean, but then instead of attacking Deans words or policies, he makes a vague connection between Dean and all other democrats. This sets the stage for the rest of the article. Although the entire article is an attack against Howard Dean, the author never actually directly connects Dean to any of the statements. Instead he quotes a myriad of other democrats and implies - through some incredible leap of logic - that Dean is somehow responsible for thier words.


Quote:
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998: "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop WMDs and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."

- Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998: "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's WMD program."


Notice how Clinton never says, in either one of these quotes, that he is sure Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction. Instead, he warns that if Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and if Saddam refuses to relinquish them, we will use force.

Quote:
- Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Feb. 18, 1998: "What happens in (Iraq) matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."

- Congressman (now House Minority Leader) Nancy Pelosi, Dec. 16, 1998: "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."


Niether one of these quotes even asserts that Iraq currently retains a stockpile of WMD's.

Quote:
- Letter to Clinton signed by Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, etc., Oct. 9, 1998: "We urge you ... to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspected Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its WMD programs."

- Sen. Bob Graham and other Democratic senators in a letter to President Bush, Dec. 5, 2001: "There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status."

- Sen. Levin, Sept. 19, 2002: "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building WMDs and the means of delivering them."

- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002: "We know that (Saddam) has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

- Sen. Ted Kennedy, Sept. 27, 2002: "We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing WMDs."

- Sen. Robert Byrd, Oct. 3, 2002: "We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons."

- Sen. Kerry, Oct. 9, 2002: "I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of WMDs in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."

- Sen. Hillary Clinton, Oct. 10, 2002: "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaida members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."

- Sen. Kerry, Jan. 23, 2003: "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime. ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction. ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real."


The above quotes are of Democrats who really did say that Saddam had WMD's. However, many democrats (including those mentioned above, like John Kerry) have made no secret of thier pro-war stance. In Kerry's case it was the mannor and timing of the invasion that he disagreed with.

Also, note that the Democratic candidates are not at fault as much as Bush because Bush - as the president of our nation - had access to all of the intelligence in question. Bush alone had the ability too look at all the evidence and draw a conclusion. On the other hand, Democrats were basing thier decisions largely on what little infomration was made available to them.

I fail to see how any of the quotes above

a) bring anything new to the table,

b) expose any sort of adriot shift in policy,

c) expose any of the democratic candidates as hypocrites,

d) most importantly, has any connection whatsoever to Howard Dean, who is the ostensible target of this article.

Quote:
Many of the usual suspects recently attacking President Bush and declaring smugly, "I insistently have dismissed the phony claims of Saddam's WMDs as a justification for war against him," have eagerly ridden the WMD bandwagon all along. Comes now Howard Dean, in his way trying to clamber aboard. In October he blasted the president on Iraq, telling The New York Times he opposed the American invasion last spring and promising that if president he (a) would cut the number of American troops in Iraq by half and (b) would send President Clinton to the Middle East to broker peace.

Dean added: (1) "Great countries ... get in trouble when they overstretch their military capabilities," and (2) "What this president is doing is setting the stage for the failure of America."


Again - this doesn't compute. The author returns to the main thrust of the article - attacking Howard Dean and implying his moral culpability in the Iraq invasion - without providing any evidence that Dean is pro-war or was ever pro-war.

What the author has done is provide a series of quotes of Democrats who are pro-war, or thought Iraq possessed WMD's, and then tried to draw some imaginary connection to Howard Dean. Also note, that several of the quotes don't even contain accusations that Iraq currently possesses WMD's and must be disarmed by force.

Quote:
"Setting the stage for failure"? If so, the record shows that President Bush had considerable help and encouragement from Dean and his fellow suspects in ideological crime.


He ends by saying President Bush "had considerable help and encouragement from Dean" - a bold-faced lie which he does nothing to qualify. Congratulations Fedral - you have effectively destroyed your credibility on this board. How can you respect someones opinion when they post such obvious trash and attempt to pass it off as something worthy of critical thought?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Jan, 2004 12:02 am
Quote:
Strong ties have been made between Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein proving Saddam supported terrorist activities that flattened two towers in New York.


Please keep repeating this blather until the rest of us believe it too.
Oh, and please check it with GWB who denys such a link existed.
0 Replies
 
 

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